[Peetwo]

OTSI catching up?? -

First appearance (ever) of OTSI at NSW Estimates? - 

Via Hansard: 

The CHAIR:  Mr Modrouvanos, how are you?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  I'm well. How are you?

The CHAIR:  I'm sure it can be very exciting sitting there all this time without getting asked a question. I understand that the Office of Transport Safety Investigations is investigating the derailment that occurred in early December in Bylong, the coal train. Are you aware of that investigation?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Not Murrumbo on the Ulan line?

The CHAIR:  Yes.

JIM MODROUVANOS:  No, we're not investigating that.

The CHAIR:  There have been reports that you're investigating it along with the Australian Rail Track Corporation. Actually, this report states it was derailed 80 kilometres west of Muswellbrook in the Bylong Valley.

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Where have you—

The CHAIR:  I thought I did see that on your website.

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Okay.

The CHAIR:  Do you investigate coal train derailments, then, in terms of safety in New South Wales, just broadly?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Yes.

The CHAIR:  Why would you not be investigating that, then?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  We don't necessarily investigate every incident.

The CHAIR:  Of course.

JIM MODROUVANOS:  It would depend on what the nature of that particular incident was. That is one where I think you'll find that we deployed. We went out and had a look at that incident. We made a determination following that not to further investigate.

The CHAIR:  Because I understand that was one where it derailed but there was a grassfire during a very hot day in December that was caused by that derailment. Did that occur?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  That's correct, yes. There was a wildfire that resulted from the derailment. It was a very hot day and the track buckled because of the heat on that particular day, which led to the derailment— that's right—and then the fire spread into the adjacent national park.

The CHAIR:  That's right. Is it your understanding, then, that during those very hot days with coal trains going, they're starting to cause or are causing grassfires as a result of the braking? Is that an occurrence that happens, or was it the derailment that caused the fire?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Our understanding was that it was the derailment that actually caused the fire.

The CHAIR:  Are there instances of coal trains themselves braking and the sparks causing fires on very hot days, especially in that kind of grassland country? Is that also an issue?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Not that I'm aware of. The major factors around that one was how ARTC was managing the traffic on that day because of the heat. So they could reasonably anticipate that there might be some track buckling because of just how hot it was and how hot it had been for a number of days.

The CHAIR:  By the sounds of it, though, if you're saying that that was being managed because the rail lines were buckling, that the train went over rail lines that had buckled anyway, that's what caused the derailment.

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Yes.

The CHAIR:  What's the difference between the ARTC investigating that and you investigating that? Why did the Office of Transport Safety Investigations—you went out there but chose not to investigate?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  There are a number of different acronyms. The ARTC is the network operator, so ARTC is the Australian Rail Track Corporation, so they're operating the network. As a chief investigator, I have a number of different avenues. One avenue would be to investigate. Another avenue would be to call upon the operator's report and assess how the operator has responded to the incident and form a view on that. Following assessment of that, we formed a view that a safety alert would be appropriate, so we put an alert out to all operators specifically around managing hot temperature conditions. These sorts of derailments do occur and it's just a question of whether systemically—we look for more systemic recommendations which are more applicable to the broader industry. In that particular case, we formed the view that factually there was enough there to make a conclusion around the management of hot temperature conditions, so we didn't proceed to further investigate.

The CHAIR:  So the management of hot temperature conditions and those kind of systemic issues, is there a temperature at which the current tracks as they're built now are likely to buckle? Is it that clear in terms of, is it 42 degrees, 38 degrees?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Generally there is a figure and it's based on a forecast figure. So in the metropolitan area there's a thing called a Wolo. It's a telegraphic code. Once the forecast figure is above a certain temperature, then automatically speed is reduced. If line speeds are 100 kilometres an hour, for example, it's reduced to 80 kilometres an hour.

The CHAIR:  What temperature is that?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  I'll have to take that one on notice. I can't remember that particular standard off the top of my head. I used to head the standards organisation.

The CHAIR:  And it's just temperature?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Temperature, and it also depends on the nature of the structure of the rail, whether it's concrete sleepered, timber sleepered, the weight of the rail et cetera, so it varies. ARTC would have their own code, so it would be within ARTC's safety system whatever that number is.

The CHAIR:  Okay, and so they're slowed down but is there a particular point then as well—and I've been approached by the community out near Bylong actually with concerns about the potential for these trains to cause fires on these very, very, very hot days where you're almost not allowed, understandably, to do anything that would cause a spark. Is there a point at which the coal trains don't or should not travel if the lines are buckling, or is going a certain pace safe enough? Do you know what I'm saying?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Yes.

The CHAIR:  The days are getting hotter and the number of very hot days is going to increase. I am wondering, from your perspective as the Acting Chief Investigator for the Office of Transport Safety Investigations, is there a point or a heat level where we should just say, "It's too unsafe for this to occur"?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  It's not really a judgement I can make because of the variables involved. The operator is accountable for their safety management system. It's for them to make the appropriate assessments and determine what the safe operating profile is of that network and to manage to that profile. We were concerned that they had lost some focus and they weren't managing to that profile, and that's why we put the alert out to remind people that you have these provisions within your safety management system and you need to adhere to these, particularly in remote areas such as on the Ulan line there. They would have something in their system to manage that and it could comprise all the factors that you've described.

The CHAIR:  Was that the day that you issued that alert you were just mentioning? Or was it that week?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  We would've issued the alert some days later, because it's quite a remote area.

The CHAIR:  After the derailment?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  Yes, after the derailment. Because it's a remote area, my staff took some time to get up there. The fire was ongoing so we couldn't approach the site for a little while. Following that, we released some safety information to the industry.

The CHAIR:  By releasing safety information to the industry, that included the—was it an instruction, direction? Or is that the ARTC—the instruction or direction to travel at a lower speed?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  I'm the investigator. I can offer recommendations. I don't have the power to issue directions. That would be—the ARTC as a network owner would have to implement their own risk controls. Failing that, the National Rail Safety Regulator is the regulatory authority that could issue directions if they saw fit.

The CHAIR:  Your recommendations in relation to this derailment—are they public? Who did you give them to?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  They'd be on our website.

The CHAIR:  So they are public. That's good. You're not used to hearing that in budget estimates these days. Mr Modrouvanos, the number of derailments as a result of the heat and rail lines buckling—is it relatively common? Do you have figures on that?

JIM MODROUVANOS:  We would have figures in terms of what has been reported to us. These types of incidents are reported to the National Rail Safety Regulator and then we're notified following those reports. So we would have some of those figures. Certainly, I've only been there a relatively short time and that is the only one I've seen in that period. But we have had other derailments for other causes that have occurred as well.

For pictures refer from 05:46:45 here:

Hmm...interesting the Acting Chief Investigator Modrouvanos mentions...

"..Following assessment of that, we formed a view that a safety alert would be appropriate, so we put an alert out to all operators specifically around managing hot temperature conditions.."

...however on review of the 'Rail Safety Alerts and Safety Advisories' webpage there would appear to be no such safety alert; or safety advisory issued??

Rail Safety Alerts
There are currently no Safety Alerts to display for rail.

Rail Safety Advisories

• 13 September 2022 - Safety Advisory - Locomotive sandbox fixing arrangements
  
• 27 June 2022 - Safety Advisory: Unknown functions in locomotive breaking systems
  
• 29 March 2022 - Safety Advisory: Safety critical communications by rail safety workers
  
• 9 August 2021 - Safety Advisory: Light Rail Vehicle (LRV) pantograph failure
  

Now rectified...

Via OTSI website: https://www.otsi.nsw.gov.au/publications...advisories

8 March 2024 - Safety Advisory SA0124 - Consideration of extreme weather events in safety management systems
Download (PDF 0.56MB)
Safety Advisory SA01/24 - Consideration of extreme weather events in safety management systems

(PDF Created: 3/7/24, 8:32:48 AM)

MTF...P2