Of Mandarins & Minions.

(08-22-2017, 08:56 PM)Peetwo Wrote:  Sandy on War & Peace - Wink   

Via one or two IOS/PAIN email chains... Rolleyes

Quote:Recently I had occasion to make an incident report to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB).

I rang and spoke to an officer about the procedure which is either an online form or a written report.

Having explained the nature of the incident I was advised not to make my explanation into "War and Peace" (1st. ed. 1225 pages by L. Tolstoy).

If the advice had been given in a light hearted or joking manner then maybe think nothing of it. But no, it was given in a condescending tone in order to display superiority and the classical learning of this clever person compared to an ignorant peasant pilot.

Nothing new here, typical Commonwealth public employee. Years ago we would have said 'public servant' but now the many that are employed by Commonwealth corporate bodies are not in fact public servants. Moreover they eschew the term public servant for that denotes lower status. Status in Canberra is everything, it's not for nothing that remuneration is 42% higher in Canberra (pop. near 400,000) than the average nationwide.

Commonwealth corporations, independent and largely unaccountable bodies were designed to regulate and administer with little or no cost to government or to make money and contribute to general revenue. A unique "user pays" hybrid design experiment off the back of the Thatcher privatisation reforms. Unfortunately the user pays only if there are users, and only if there is real value. Without a free and competitive market there can be no acceptable standard and therefore the model is, and with irrefutable facts in hindsight, a failure.

Unfortunately being monopolies they perpetuate themselves with make work programs, the never ending and outrageously expensive rules rewrite (now unworkable rules of  strict liability criminality) by the Civil Aviation body (CASA) being a perfect example. Monopolistic fee gouging for completely unnecessary permissions or licences along with runaway wages and uncontrolled expenses add to internally bloated budgets.

An interesting exercise would be to make an overall cost benefit analysis of the unique corporate body administration of civil aviation in Australia which began some 29 years ago. Having lived and worked in General Aviation (GA) for more than 50 years it is obvious that the costs to community in lost businesses and jobs far outweigh the sums gained by the fees that are extorted by the regulator. 

A department controlled by a responsible Minister overseeing and administering with a rational, internationally compatible rule set is needed. This would be effective and efficient with tax revenues from a healthy industry much greater than the industry destroying fees and massive ever churning paperwork burdens which are currently imposed.

The bureaucratic War on GA should cease, CASA will resist at every turn, therefore only action by Parliament can bring a new and prosperous Peace.

Sandy Reith 

The War & Peace saga continues: Hoody gets precious - Rolleyes

Via PAIN/IOS email chains... Wink

Quote:On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 at 09:12 Leahey Trish <Trish.Leahey@atsb.gov.au> wrote:
Quote:Dear Mr Reith
 
On behalf of Chief Commissioner Greg Hood, please find attached a letter from the ATSB.
 
Regards
 
Trish

[Image: Precious-Hoody.jpg]

To which Sandy responded:

Quote:Hi Trish,

Thank you for sending the Chief Commissioner’s email letter. 

Please pass this reply to him. An open email. 


Hello Greg,

Thank you for writing to me of your concerns. I can certainly understand your wish to protect staff from unfair criticism and in future I might well take up your offer of a direct personal consultation before going public. Perhaps this might lead to your staff member apologising directly to me. On the other hand being a public body your staff would well and truly understand that they are open to public scrutiny and criticism. 

In addition, as you would be well aware, General Aviation has been under severe and debilitating attack from Canberra for many years and we are inclined to push back. 

In this instance in your letter you refer to an “interpretation” of “War and Peace”. In the conversation with your officer there was no interpretation needed because they were the words she used, and I as I say, in a condescending manner. This is in the scheme of things a small instance of a pervading problem that we find time and again dealing with Canberra authorities of all stripes. Authorities like ATSB are publicly owned monopoly corporations and have accrued a great deal of power. It shows. 

The flavour that we experience is well illustrated by your general email disclaimer and threatening admonishment, in part quote:- 

.....”The information transmitted is for the use of the intended recipient only and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, disclosure, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may result in severe penalties.”....  

Regards,

Sandy

Also of interest (off the email chains) is a discussion related to Adam Smith's article on the 'Concept of Justice' with the parallels to the governance and big "R" regulation of the aviation industry... Confused   

Quote:Sandy:

....This article goes to the heart of the problems in the governance of aviation in Australia. 

In particular the commentary about “unintended consequences” or in other words the ill effects of the law going beyond controlling in the manner desired by Adam Smith. 
Our current strict liability aviation law is counter to  Smith’s sound philosophy.

Adam Smith's Concept of Justice - Foundation for Economic Education - Working for a free and prosperous world


https://fee.org/articles/adam-smiths-concept-of-justice/

Sandy,
 
It also goes against the regulation making policies of the Parliament, the A-Gs, the Office of Parliamentary Council, the Productivity Commission and the OBPR, and the Senate Standing Committee on Regulations and Ordinances (or whatever it is called now) but it all makes no difference, such is the “Mystique of Air Safety”, and the apparent total disinterest of the Minister.
 
At its core, just two determines people in CAA/CASA have driven this since the late 1980’s --- with plenty of willing accomplices, including in industry, but just two have driven the philosophical underpinnings of Australia having to have complex prescriptive aviation law, all in a criminal law format, with as good as makes no difference, all being strict liability.
 
JUST TWO PEOPLE!!
To almost destroy civil aviation as a major and viable industry in Australia.

Cheers,

Bill Hamilton


Hi Bill,

Just who are those two people?? 

Here’s an interesting Article from BCA magazine. Interesting the divergence from Australian “Policy”.


Quote:Time For Innovation: Grandfatherly Flying Is So Yesterday
Sep 22, 2017William Garvey  | Business & Commercial Aviation 

This year my car turned 17, making it a senior four-wheeled citizen since the median for flivvers is less than 10. However, the average age of a general aviation aircraft today is roughly 40 years. Think about that for a moment. An ancient iPhone is one purchased way back in 2014. Sofa beds get tossed after five years‘ worth of guests, kids and cats. A giant panda is gone after 20. And cars are deemed “classic” at 25. So, that a fleet of mobile machinery now averages two score — and many are a lot older than that — is quite a testament to durability and upkeep.

But there are other reasons for that impressive seniority. Today I pulled BCA’s 1987 Purchase Planning Handbook from the shelf (yes, I’m a bit of a hoarder), and found these stats for the then-new Beech Bonanza A36: seating — 1+4/5; engine — 300 hp; max ramp weight — 3,663 lb.; max speed — 176 kt. Compare those numbers with the G36 Bonanza in our 2017 Handbook: seating — 1+4/5; engine — 300 hp; max ramp weight — 3,663 lb.; high-speed cruise — 174 kt.

So, while the cockpit instrumentation has been markedly improved on the G model, the 2017 machine delivers almost exactly what its A model predecessor did back when Ronald Reagan was exhorting Mikhail Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin Wall.

Oh, and another point. The 1987 Bonanza sold for $263,000, which admittedly was a chunk of dough back then. But the 2017 version is listed at $815,000, which is, respectively, a whole lot bigger chunk. In fact, that’s double the rate of inflation.

The foregoing factors combined to move just 25 Bonanzas off the production line last year, one in which single-engine aircraft failed to break the 1,000 mark . . . for the eighth year running. So, the post-Recession general aviation recession vexingly continues. But there are some encouraging developments that could produce positive results.

My Aviation Week & Space Technology colleague John Croft notes, “The convergence of four factors — electric engine technology, powerful lithium-chemistry batteries, automatic control systems and flexible new regulations — is opening new ‘degrees of freedom’ in aircraft design.” Arguably of those, the key is regulatory, specifically the new FAR Part 23, which contains the airworthiness standards for light aircraft.

The 
FAA is supposed to review all its major regulatory sections every decade. However, by the time it got around to eyeballing Part 23 in the early 2000s, 30 years had passed. And when the review began, the discussions and areas of interest were based on how things had always been. Greg Bowles, who was the General Aviation Manufacturers Association’s participant, thought the process was ripe for radical change. As it happened, the FAA agreed.

The process that followed was deliberate and slow, but the results are formidable. In the rewrite of Part 23, which came into effect at the end of August, the rules are prescriptive rather than performance based, allowing manufacturers to use consensus standards to show compliance. The 
European Aviation Safety Agency has adopted light plane rules that are virtually identical, and other aviation regulatory bodies are expected to follow suit, which was one of the goals of the process.

According to Bowles, now GAMA’s vice president for global innovation and policy, the new approach enables manufacturers to “actually design and innovate and put the cool stuff in the field.”

That “stuff” is for others to imagine and bring to the fore but could conceivably range from electric and hybrid-electric power to pilotless aircraft to who knows what? The hope is that by adapting rapidly evolving technology to general aviation, prices and complexity will diminish, while safety and general appeal increase. All of those would be welcome developments considering the steady decline of the pilot population and apparent lack of interest in general aviation by millennials in general.

Supposedly this is a generation that doesn’t drive, let alone own cars. So, they’re not likely to embrace expensive, complex flying machines designed when their grandfathers were young. “That’s why this stuff is so important,” says Bowles.
We’ll see. As he says, “Now it’s in our hands.” Or not in any hands.

Barry Justice, the president and CEO of Corporate Aviation Analysis & Planning Inc., a well-regarded business aviation consultancy, who is a former director of flight ops for a Fortune 100 outfit, says there’s heavy investing ongoing to advance flight control technology quickly and business aviation is involved.

He reports that in the past two years, he knows of three flight department managers who were informed that their companies — two insurance providers and one utility — were buying unmanned aerial vehicles and that “The drones now report to you.” More will follow that pattern; it makes sense.

As for flying in pilotless urban Ubers, we’ll see. Justice queried associates and got a Never! response. But he says, if proven safe, he’d hop aboard. As for me, I’d consider trading in my M Coupe only after Google releases its 2,000th FAA-certificated passenger drone. 


Finally and very much in context with the above, Sandy on the concept of 'Just Culture' in the Oz GA environment:

Quote:Is the much touted “Just Culture” the answer to the woes of General Aviation? 

“Just Culture” is a confidence trick that no one should fall for because it is simply an excuse for the injustice of regulation by whim and fancy of a bureaucrat who may be influenced or biased by a myriad of unknowable and unstated (improper?) circumstances. 

This utterly obnoxious concept, sanctioned and promoted by Ministers and their top minions, is  perfectly suited to our highly prescriptive strict liability aviation criminal law that is so convoluted and dense with contradictions that a faceless bureaucrat may decide the definition of “justice” which is completely at odds with the real meaning. 

For example from the CASA website (my underlining and italics):-

“ASICs (Aviation Security Identification Cards) and AVIDs (Aviation Identification) show that the holder has a current security check but only an ASIC can be used at security controlled airports. ASICs are normally valid for up to 2 years and AVIDs are normally valid for up to 5 years.

While an AVID and an ASIC are both evidence that background checks have been undertaken, the background checks for the AVID are not equivalent to the checks for the ASIC.

At a minimum, all pilots must undergo the background checks for an AVID and ASIC. Only those pilots who require frequent access to a secure area of a security controlled airport will need to undergo the more robust background checks for an ASIC.

To streamline processes and remove any duplication, pilots who undergo the background check for an ASIC do not have to undergo the background checking for an AVID.

If you plan to frquently fly into a security controlled airport that has RPT services you need to have an ASIC.”

(Question:-   If one does not frequently fly into a security controlled airport will an AVID suffice? Plenty of small regional towns get an Regular Public Transport flight, a few times per week, why not the AVID? Who will say what is legal?)


The only safeguard for true justice is straightforward practical and commonsense law that is rational and reasonably acceptable. The law must be understandable by the average person to whom it is directed, not be too intrusive on the rights of others and be respectful of our freedoms. 

Were this the case with the laws governing aviation, and particularly General Aviation, there would be no quarrel and justice could be left where it rightly belongs. 

Justice, and most especially the justice of citizens against the might of the State, should be the prerogative of the proper independent Courts of Australia. 

Sandy Reith 

To which Stan replied:

http://proaviation.com.au/advocacy/confi...reporting/
 
The above goes some way to illustrating how well “just culture” works in the CASA world. It is designed that way and like all legislation open to [their] interpretation. We should finally concede that unlike most first world cultures, Australia consists of two separate systems, an out of control bureaucracy and a very acquiescent populace separated by an embarrassing group of politicians mostly unemployable in the real world with a few exceptions. When we consider that it takes programs like The ABC 4Corners to expose ground water pollution by the RAAF or illegal diversion of precious water etc. etc. where does the actual management of the country come into play.  There is absolutely NO accountability on any ones part except for aviation’s “strict liability” implications. The ballot box won’t change anything because it’s always the same faces or promises. Maybe time for quite a few more (political) parties before an election, instead of the splinter groups now within the majors. Coalitions formed on exacting terms before an election which they can then be held to account for in terms of unity.
 
Stan van de Wiel
  
MTF...P2 Cool
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 06-24-2015, 08:53 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 06-24-2015, 09:44 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 06-27-2015, 12:56 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-02-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 06-27-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 06-27-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 06-28-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peter Lovett - 06-28-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 06-28-2015, 07:11 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 06-29-2015, 06:54 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 07-02-2015, 10:48 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-08-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 07-08-2015, 07:14 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-10-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-22-2015, 07:56 AM
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RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 03-06-2017, 11:13 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 04-02-2017, 10:13 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 05-05-2017, 11:39 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-16-2017, 05:50 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 05-19-2017, 07:33 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 05-20-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-31-2017, 07:56 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 05-31-2017, 09:30 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-31-2017, 01:12 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 06-01-2017, 11:27 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-14-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 08-01-2017, 09:46 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 08-22-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 10-17-2017, 05:58 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-06-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-07-2017, 02:36 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Cap'n Wannabe - 09-07-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 09-07-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-08-2017, 02:31 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 09-09-2017, 06:56 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 09-09-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 09-09-2017, 06:11 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-16-2017, 10:37 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-25-2017, 06:12 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 09-26-2017, 06:09 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-29-2017, 10:06 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 10-20-2017, 04:16 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 10-21-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 10-26-2017, 07:44 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 11-07-2017, 05:25 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 12-11-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 01-09-2018, 02:29 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 01-11-2018, 07:17 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 01-22-2018, 07:07 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-23-2018, 10:05 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-27-2018, 08:17 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 03-12-2018, 09:25 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 03-13-2018, 06:39 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 03-26-2018, 07:46 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 03-28-2018, 08:10 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 04-10-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-11-2018, 02:14 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 04-11-2018, 07:37 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 04-12-2018, 08:41 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 04-15-2018, 10:17 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 04-19-2018, 06:45 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 04-21-2018, 09:25 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 04-21-2018, 01:57 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 04-21-2018, 08:31 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 04-23-2018, 07:03 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 04-29-2018, 05:24 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-02-2018, 09:55 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 05-03-2018, 06:52 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 05-12-2018, 06:20 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Sandy Reith - 05-12-2018, 10:18 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 05-12-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 05-17-2018, 07:00 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-18-2018, 09:14 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-17-2018, 06:11 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 05-18-2018, 06:37 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 06-01-2018, 10:29 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 06-16-2018, 10:48 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 06-28-2018, 12:35 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 06-29-2018, 10:58 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 06-29-2018, 12:06 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-18-2018, 09:07 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 07-22-2018, 04:14 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 07-22-2018, 08:00 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 07-22-2018, 08:58 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-23-2018, 01:03 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 07-23-2018, 02:18 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 08-08-2018, 09:49 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 08-20-2018, 09:24 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 08-21-2018, 06:57 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 08-21-2018, 05:52 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Sandy Reith - 08-22-2018, 10:52 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-11-2018, 06:29 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 10-02-2018, 07:06 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 10-05-2018, 11:01 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 12-01-2018, 09:54 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 12-07-2018, 06:48 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 12-08-2018, 08:24 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 12-09-2018, 01:55 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 12-21-2018, 09:34 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 01-08-2019, 02:38 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 01-14-2019, 08:00 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 01-19-2019, 07:57 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 01-19-2019, 07:59 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 03-19-2019, 02:33 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gobbledock - 03-20-2019, 05:07 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 04-16-2019, 10:31 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-01-2019, 10:06 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-10-2019, 12:14 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-24-2019, 02:14 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 05-25-2019, 08:50 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 06-02-2019, 08:13 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 06-24-2019, 10:59 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-27-2019, 09:35 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Sandy Reith - 07-27-2019, 01:18 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-31-2019, 10:16 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 08-09-2019, 09:16 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 08-13-2019, 06:23 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 11-10-2019, 02:08 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 12-06-2019, 01:35 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 12-11-2019, 12:38 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 12-13-2019, 10:58 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 12-13-2019, 07:16 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by P7_TOM - 12-14-2019, 07:38 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 12-14-2019, 12:09 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 12-23-2019, 06:41 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 02-09-2020, 09:34 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 03-28-2020, 03:43 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-25-2020, 11:29 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 10-13-2020, 08:18 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 10-24-2020, 03:40 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 12-05-2020, 08:44 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-13-2021, 02:59 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 04-10-2021, 05:58 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 04-11-2021, 10:25 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 05-02-2021, 03:19 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 11-06-2021, 07:22 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 01-04-2022, 05:34 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by thorn bird - 01-05-2022, 09:04 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-27-2022, 10:12 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 06-23-2022, 08:24 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 07-14-2022, 07:27 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 08-05-2022, 10:04 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 08-18-2022, 07:59 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-03-2022, 10:10 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 11-02-2022, 07:16 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 11-06-2022, 09:26 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 11-21-2022, 09:15 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 12-23-2022, 03:52 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 12-25-2022, 08:02 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 01-13-2023, 06:36 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 01-27-2023, 07:47 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 02-06-2023, 05:18 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-22-2023, 09:55 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Sandy Reith - 02-24-2023, 03:00 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Sandy Reith - 02-25-2023, 02:13 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 02-27-2023, 06:29 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-27-2023, 09:12 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-23-2023, 12:03 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 05-24-2023, 06:49 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 05-24-2023, 11:27 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Gentle - 05-25-2023, 06:47 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Kharon - 05-25-2023, 07:05 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 06-24-2023, 09:51 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 09-15-2023, 05:09 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-09-2024, 06:02 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-14-2024, 07:35 AM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-22-2024, 07:27 PM
RE: Of Mandarins & Minions. - by Peetwo - 02-29-2024, 08:12 PM



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