[Peetwo]

Hansard out; Senator McDonald drills into Torres Straits airstrip embargo?? -    

CASA Hansard - HERE

Via Youtube:

(From 40:18 minutes) 

Senator McDONALD: It's great to see you. I have some questions about the legislative change process to align with the CAO. You notified of proposed changes. Part 139 has all gone well. There was the small part of the CAO; do we have a funny way to say that?

Ms Spence: The civil aviation order.

Senator McDONALD: It is about operating to manufacture specs, which has been in use for the last 50 years. It has added a safety performance factor of 20 per cent to Northern Australia airstrips. You know all about this. I have to tell you that the industry has been very complimentary of the very helpful way that CASA has gone about trying to resolve the issues for Murray Island, Darnley Island and Mabuiag Island. You have given an allowance for the short landing approval. The company has done modifications of US$17,000 per aircraft. We still have this problem where aircraft that have been landing at two islands for the last 20 years now can't. My understanding is that the company is now submitting a test flying program and that hopefully somebody will sign off on it. I understand that under the legislation you don't have a legislated way to solve this. You have to keep providing workarounds for each circumstance. I keep hearing about it whether it is the big guys, such as Qantas, Virgin or Rex, or little operators like this one. Everybody has been granted exemptions. There are workarounds. How do we talk about legislative change frameworks that mean we're not having to do this? It just seems extraordinary.

Ms Spence: It has been one of the most difficult issues that I've dealt with since I have been in CASA.

Senator McDONALD: Really? I know you've dealt with some difficult issues.

Ms Spence: Everything in me says these people desperately need these services. The alternatives are so terrible. The other side of it is that they are operating on airstrips that were built post Second World War and were designed for a certain type of aircraft that doesn't operate there any more. They are certainly technically better aircraft, but they are bigger and more powerful than what was designed to operate on these airstrips. We are working very closely with the operator you mentioned to see how we actually make it work for the two remaining islands. If we haven't yet, we will be going back to them shortly saying, 'Yes, do the flight testing that they've proposed.'

To your point, we want to find an enduring solution to this because there will be a number of other aerodromes that have not dissimilar issues. It's not a bad thing to provide exemptions for certain types of activity. We would like to be able to do more of a class exemption rather than deal with everything on a case-by-case basis. Our hope is that by working through the issue that we are currently with the operator you mentioned, we will be able to find a more enduring solution for these circumstances. You prefer to use a more sophisticated aircraft, but you are operating on airstrips that were never designed for that type of aircraft.

Senator McDONALD: There is no safety case. They've been operating on those strips for 20 years using a Caravan without incidents.

Ms Spence: You are right around the length of time that they've been operating. It wouldn't be 20 years with the Caravan. They would have previously been using the Islanders, the ones designed to operate on those strips. At the end of the day, the manufacturers themselves say these aircraft aren't designed to operate on those strips. Again, this is the logic part that is very difficult to come to terms with. The bottom line is that you are asking us to approve something that is not as safe as what other people would get. It is trying to get that balance. If there is no alternative, is something we provide with less assurance a better outcome than no outcome at all? That's what we're working through at the moment.

Senator McDONALD: At the moment, the alternative is a dingy in crocodile and shark infested waters.

Ms Spence: We met with the council when we were up in Cairns a few weeks ago. Something we discussed with them is whether they feel comfortable writing to us and explaining to us, in the absence of us approving it, what the alternative looks like and how they say to us, 'We accept and understand that this is not the same level of assurance that you would get in other areas for this particular location because the need for the service is greater than what the alternative might look like.'

Senator McDONALD: This is complex. I listened to the questions from Senator Smith and Senator Roberts. I appreciate that CASA is under pressure to provide more regulation and different standards. How many strips do you think this applies to?

Mr Marcelja: I think it is six in the Torres Strait that we are looking at.

Senator McDONALD: What about the rest of Northern Australia?

Mr Marcelja: We haven't identified any at this stage, but we are actively looking to see whether the solution we are talking about here would have a broader application. Where we are aware there may be some need is in the area of medical services, such as the Royal Flying Doctors Service and others. We are actively trying to look at whether there are others, but none have been brought to our attention at the moment.

Senator McDONALD: My understanding is that the reason you became aware of this was another airline competitor brought this to your attention?

Ms Spence: No. Actually the operator themselves raised it with us. It is a big kudos to that operator, who has been—

Senator McDONALD: That is not my understanding. They said they weren't made aware of the change of legislation and that it was from an audit that CASA came to them.

Ms Spence: This is where it gets even more complex. It wasn't as a result of the change of regulations. I think there was a difference in interpretation of how some of the civil aviation orders worked. I think we could have certainly been clearer. At the end of the day, it wasn't a change in regulation.

Senator McDONALD: What I need to understand is how many strips you have identified and where and how many operators are now affected. I guess I am really concerned that we don't have a safety case for change. I know that CASA will say that this is the new world and that this has not been safe. There has been no incident. These people are now forced into a more dangerous outcome because we have decided to change the rules.

Ms Spence: As I said, we are working on the basis of what the aircraft manufacturer says is safe. It's not us changing the rules. I'm not disagreeing with the scenario that we have landed in, which is how we can safely ensure that these people get aviation services. It's also making sure that we don't approve something that then, again, involves what Senator Smith was asking about. I would hate to be sitting here and him saying, 'What on earth were you thinking, Ms Spence, when you allowed these operations to occur?' That's the balance.

Senator McDONALD: There wasn't a problem that you were trying to fix. You've identified a problem. You've identified an issue that didn't have a problem and now a whole lot of people have a worse problem. If they were to go and privately hire the Caravan, they wouldn't be subject to these rules?

Ms Spence: That's correct. They would be operating privately, not as a commercial transport operator.

Senator McDONALD: It makes no sense.

Mr Marcelja: That is the exact conversation we were having a moment ago. We have a much higher safety standard for a commercial operation.

Senator McDONALD: I understand that. But the people are now in crocodile and shark waters. People frequently have terrible situations in dinghies in the Torres Strait.

Mr Marcelja: We had a really good conversation with the operator. They've stepped us through all the additional mitigating actions they are taking. They've done additional pilot training. They are marking runways. They are now about to go and do a test program to see whether all those other things they've developed can give us some assurance.

Senator McDONALD: I know. They were very complimentary of CASA's approach and the way that you are doing it. I am worried that once again CASA has identified a problem that didn't exist.

Ms Spence: We would categorise it differently to that, Senator. I think we're all in furious agreement about the need to—

Senator McDONALD: CASA always identifies it differently to that. That is why I end up here at estimates every single time, tediously for you, no doubt. You are going to identify how many strips. I appreciate you are going to try to sort it for the RFDS. There is a whole lot of other operators other than the RFDS. We rely on it in Northern Australia. General aviation is our bread and butter to get around. I shudder to think of all these test flights, the new weights and the measurements. We're going to fly out and we're going to do it over and over again and send you videos because you don't want to authorise that happening. You will authorise it once they've sent you all this information. You are not actually engaged in saying that this is a process that you will authorise.

Ms Spence: But one thing that will come out of this—the operator has already said it to us—is that they generally feel their operations into Murray Island are safer now than they were. They say that is a good thing.

Mr Marcelja: It is quite an isolated issue because those runways on those islands are particularly short. There are not many other locations where we are faced with that.

Senator McDONALD: I look forward to you actually doing it. I understand there is an audit of Indigenous strips maybe with the infrastructure department.

Ms Spence: It may be with the department.

Senator McDONALD: I heard something today. There will be strips all over the country. Guess what? The infrastructure department is not going to pay for them all to be upgraded.

Ms Spence: But not all of them will have this significant issue. It is not just that it is short. It is soft at the end of the runway. It is just a particularly challenging environment.

Senator McDONALD: So it's fixable. Somebody could pay for it to be fixed. Do you think the infrastructure department would pay for that to be fixed?

Ms Spence: Senator, you know what answer I am going to give you.

Senator McDONALD: Minister, do you think that would be something that could be looked at? We've raised that there are two islands.

Senator CANAVAN: You might have to wait for the Voice.

Senator McDONALD: Indeed. Thank you. Do you think that for the two islands that now have no passenger service going into them this is a good outcome?

Senator Chisholm: We did cover off this yesterday. Senator Canavan asked a question about the remote airport upgrade fund. Another round was agreed to in the budget. I know we have funded some support for airport strips in the Cape islands. It might be something that they can apply for as part of that.

Senator McDONALD: Terrific, if you take carriage of that. I think it is pretty shocking that we have actually gone backwards as a result of regulation. For the people on those islands, I think it's a poor outcome.

Ms Spence: Yes, understood.

Senator McDONALD: The industry bodies have all been complimentary of the fact that there is a not a legislative fix. You are going to have people out there with sandbags weighing things. We have created a problem that didn't exist. People are worse off.

Ms Spence: As I said, Senator, my hope is that we can find a more enduring solution that will actually be beneficial to the communities because they will actually have safer services when we can get those services back.

Senator McDONALD: Will you write to the minister alerting her to these two specific islands and the issues? Could you?

Ms Spence: Yes.

Senator McDONALD: We want a solution out of this.

Ms Spence: What I can let you know is that we do regular reporting to the minister, so we can include an update on how we're going on this issue at our next update.

Senator McDONALD: I think that would be terrific. For the pregnant girl who goes into labour and has no solution now because we've taken it away—it will be cold comfort if something terrible happens to somebody because we are so smart and so modern that we won't let people land on places where they've been landing for 20 years. That is the end of my questions for CASA.

Here we go again - Ref: Proaviation - A skilfully mismanaged stuffup - Su_Spence and her WOFTAM mob of executive trough feeders in their lofty offices at Aviation Hearse, dictating to the isolated regional communities of the Torres Strait how their essential air services, are to be operated safely - UDB! 

"..You are right around the length of time that they've been operating. It wouldn't be 20 years with the Caravan.."

By the way Pup_Spence the Caravan has been safely operated in the Torres Straits for 30 years..



MTF...P2 

PS: A blast from the past:

“CASA will do all it can to ensure that a person whose licence, certificate or authority is suspended or cancelled has ready access to full external merits review in the AAT. Once before the AAT, CASA will conduct itself as a model litigant.” CASA, in a document entitled: A new approach to enforcement. March, 1989.

“Anyone other than Dick Smith who joins CASA, becomes ‘infallible'”– Dick Smith, August 1998.

“That’s the way the system works. They think: ‘We are powerful and we are totally unaccountable.'” – Dick Smith, August 1998.