[Peetwo]

Popinjay's bizarre 'no learnings' mantra continues on Gympie midair?? - 

Via the other Aunty:

ATSB criticised for refusing to investigate Gympie plane crash that killed two pilots

ABC Sunshine Coast / By Jessica Ross
Posted Sun 4 Dec 2022 at 10:19am


The planes came down on a dairy farm about 200 metres from one another.(ABC Sunshine Coast: Jessica Ross)

Aviation groups and the family and friends of the two pilots killed in a mid-air collision near Gympie fear they may never know what went wrong because the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) is refusing to investigate the crash.

Key points:

• Two aviation groups representing the pilots killed say the ATSB should investigate
  
• The ATSB says it won't examine the crash because it is "unlikely to yield new safety learnings"
  
• The family of one of the pilots involved fear they will never have closure
  

Experienced pilots Christopher "Bob" Turner, 80, of Caboolture, and Barry Irvine, 77, of Glenwood, died on November 9.

Mr Turner was flying a glider and Mr Irvine was behind the controls of a small recreational plane.

The aircraft collided in the clear sky above a dairy farm at Kybong, a few kilometres away from the Gympie aerodrome.

Gliding Australia president Steve Pegler said the ATSB should "absolutely" be investigating.

"There's all these safety lessons that are still to be learned out of it," Mr Pegler said.


Gliding Australia president Steve Pegler says the pilots' families deserve a thorough investigation.(Supplied: Gliding Australia)

"We've got two people who have died and the ATSB has walked away from it … which is a real shame — it's a lost opportunity."

Recreational Aviation Australia (RAAus) has echoed the call.

Chief executive Matt Bouttell said the Transport Safety Investigation Act provided an "out" for the ATSB, because the accident involved sport aircraft.

"They've chosen not to … however, ultimately an independent review needs to be done," he said.

"This is about two aircraft in a very busy airspace, not far from a major airport … where this may have been two large, passenger-carrying aircraft."

The Queensland Police Service's Forensic Crash Unit is investigating, but a spokesperson said no comment could be made while the case was open.

Mr Pegler said he respected the police's efforts.

"But they're not subject matter experts when it comes to aviation," he said.

"We'd be quite happy to offer that assistance if they asked for that, but they haven't at this stage."


Barry Irvine is being remembered as an exceptional pilot and talented musician who lived life to the fullest.(Supplied)

Tragedy strikes twice

The lack of an investigation by the national authority has been a bitter blow for Mr Irvine's family.

Mr Irvine's brother Colin died in a hang-gliding accident in 1975.

Surviving brother Terry Irvine said Colin's accident was thoroughly investigated by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority at the time.

"There was no definite conclusion on the cause and that left us maybe with some questions unanswered, but at least there was an attempt to find answers," Mr Irvine said.


Terry Irvine says he loses sleep wondering about his brother (pictured) and his final moments.(Supplied)

He said while he supported the police investigation into Barry's accident, he feared it would not lead to changes that could prevent similar tragedies.

"I have problems going back to sleep because there are questions churning over in my mind," Mr Irvine said.

"The hard part is ... knowing that we will probably never find the answers in this situation.

"I don't want to be calling for any bans on recreational or light aircraft activities … but at least some sort of investigation … in the hope that the number of accidents is reduced, to stop other families from going through what my family and the other pilot's family are going through."


Gliding Australia says Mr Turner (far right) was an experienced pilot who "loved soaring flight".(Supplied)

Caboolture Gliding Club president Garrett Russell flew with Mr Turner for years.

"He was one of the most experienced and most meticulous pilots that I had the pleasure of flying with, and a great instructor," Mr Russell said.

"People have died … an investigation would be very valuable for all pilots … to know what happened, because a mid-air collision is something that can happen to any aircraft.

"It's rare … but we want to make it even more rare."


Christopher Turner (left) is remembered as a "meticulous" pilot.(Supplied)

No new 'learnings'

ATSB chief commissioner Angus Mitchell said it was a "long-established government policy" to prioritise resources on investigations with the potential to deliver the greatest public benefit.

Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry".

He said there was "self-administration arrangements" for the recreational sector to undertake its own accident investigations.

"Where requested and as resourcing permits the ATSB may assist sport and recreation aviation organisations," Mr Mitchell said.

"The ATSB empathises with the next of kin who have lost loved ones in the Kybong accident and are seeking answers as to how the accident occurred."


Mr Bouttell says there can be a perception of a lack of independence if his organisation investigates an incident involving a member.(Supplied)

Mr Bouttell said his group had conducted investigations in the past, but it should not have to.

"Enough is enough on the basis that we expose our people, our own employees and volunteers, to some pretty horrific scenes," he said.

"Furthermore, the expertise lies with our ATSB."

Courtesy AOPA Oz, via FB:

STATEMENT FROM ATSB CHIEF COMMISSIONER ANGUS MITCHELL

In accordance with long-established government policy, the ATSB is funded and directed to prioritise its resources on transport safety investigations that have the potential to deliver the greatest public benefit through systemic improvements to transport safety, and would only investigate accidents involving recreational aviation aircraft on an exception basis where a particular third-party risk is identified.

In the Kybong mid-air accident, both aircraft were operating in non-controlled airspace. Procedures for operating in non-controlled airspace are long established, mid-air collisions in uncontrolled airspace are rare, and any ATSB transport safety investigation would be unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry.

The ATSB notes that the self-administration arrangements for the recreational aviation sector specifically provide for self-administration bodies to undertake accident investigation, and that the safety learnings from accidents in the sector are usually limited because the causal factors are generally well-understood. 

Where requested and as resourcing permits the ATSB may assist sport and recreation aviation organisations’ investigations through providing technical assistance, such as a metallurgical examination of aircraft components or data recovery.

Investigator representatives from recreational aviation organisations are also able to attend the ATSB’s transport safety investigator graduate certificate course, which is delivered jointly by the ATSB and RMIT University.

The ATSB empathises with the next of kin who have lost loved ones in the Kybong accident and are seeking answers as to how the accident occurred.

-- END

Comments in reply: 

Clinton McKenzie

I'm astonished by the suggestion that there's nothing more to learn. As I said in the AOPA broadcast, until you know what happened, you don't know whether there's anything to learn.

And I'll reiterate here something I've said above, so that the particular point can be debated:
Let's think about how best to keep RPT passengers safe, given that's the ATSB's priority (and funded out of the CRF rather than a new tax on airlines...). What do you think is the most likely cause of an RPT hull loss?

Currently, RPT aircraft operate in and out of aerodromes in G airspace. I think the most likely cause of an RPT hull loss is a collision with a 'light' aircraft in the vicinity of an aerodrome in G. If I were an RPT passenger, I'd be wanting the ATSB to be focussing on the risks arising from the way 'light' aircraft operate and, therefore, be looking very, very closely at all mid-air collisions in G.

And I've often said: If you want to keep aircraft operating in and out of e.g. Sydney safe, you better be making sure that student pilots operating in and out of Bankstown are competent (at least 'back in the day' when Bankstown was busy).

But that's just my opinion.

---

Lorraine MacGillivray
  · 31:08

Glider pilot, recreational pilot, nothing to see here folks I believe is the go. All pilots lives matter. If a person involved in an accident is a celebrity or it will gather media attention ATSB will probably investigate. Sad! Motor vehicle accident fatalities are all investigated doesn’t matter if you are a commercial driver or a private individual.

---

Paul Strike
  · 26:07

Why was the Mackay Jodel investigation ceased. There was a mammoth amount of learning from that event. All the wrong things were done by the deceased (RIP) and people need to know there are consequences for not complying with the "System" that is designed to keep us as safe as possible.

---

Shannon Baker
  · 46:56

It's almost a form of selective enforcement of the regulations.

---

Gary Weeks
  · 21:02

There should be just one regulator (CASA) and one accident investigation organisation (ATSB).
Picking and choosing the fatal aviation accidents to investigate when they are (under the TIA) bound to.

---

Randal McFarlane
  · 13:14

Outrageous behaviour on the part of the ATSB commissioner and government. Leaving the state police to attempt an investigation in most cases

Let’s look at the FAA and NTSB do and mirror this.

Finally CM's quote from the ICAO Annex 13 notified differences to Para 5.1: 

"..Australia may not institute an investigation
into ‘domestic’ accidents where the aircraft
concerned is on the Australian Register.
Decisions on whether a particular domestic
accident will be investigated will depend on
resources and the likely benefit to future
safety, particularly in the general aviation
sector..."

Para 5.1 reads:

5.1 The State of Occurrence shall institute an investigation into the circumstances of the accident and be responsible for the conduct of the investigation, but it may delegate the whole or any part of the conducting of such investigation to another State by mutual arrangement and consent. In any event the State of Occurrence shall use every means to facilitate the investigation.

Hmm...I wonder if the ATSB have reported the accident to ICAO?

MTF...P2