[Peetwo]

Finally..

Amber Millar’s parents blame CASA for daughter’s Broome chopper crash death with pilot Troy Thomas

From the start: 

Senator DEAN SMITH: Thank you for your time here this evening, Ms Spence, and other officials. I just noticed that your nametag says chief executive and director of aviation safety. Can you explain to me why it is necessary to have both roles?

Ms Spence: Because the job actually is two titles. One is the person responsible for running the organisation. There is also a role under the legislation as the director of aviation safety.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Have the roles always been combined?

Ms Spence: Yes.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Across Northern Australia, can you tell me the deployment of CASA officials at various aviation centres? Mr Walker was nodding his head.

Ms Spence: First of all, I should probably just point out that we do operate under a national operating model. While we do have staff located in Northern Australia from Cairns and Darwin, we are able to send resources from other areas in the organisation to support operations in Northern Australia. I will pass to Mr Walker to provide a bit more detail.

Mr Walker : Yes, we do have state offices right around Australia. In particular, for Northern Australia, there is an office in Darwin and an office in Cairns. The other most northern office would be the Brisbane office. In our Cairns office, we have roughly 23 or 24 staff. We have 11 staff in Darwin. Brisbane is one of our larger offices, with about 219 staff.

Senator DEAN SMITH: When we think of northern Western Australia, which is my home state, what is the most northern town that has a CASA presence?

Mr Walker : Generally, northern Western Australia we manage out of our Darwin office. That is also supplemented with staff out of the Perth office.

Senator DEAN SMITH: So the 11 staff that are permanently based in Darwin are also responsible for northern WA?

Mr Walker : Yes. As Ms Spence said, they are supplemented with our staff nationally. The way we run our operations for the organisation, particularly in my area of regulatory services, is that rather than being location specific, we have staff available to service those needs out of any CASA office, depending on where the surge in demand is. One thing we don't really have control over is where the work comes from and when it comes. We deploy local staff generally as a preference, particularly for regulatory services, where there is some local knowledge and particularly for our surveillance activities. Otherwise, we would defer that work to one of our other offices.

Senator DEAN SMITH: I will stay with northern Western Australia for a moment. How frequently would CASA officials or officers make themselves present at various aviation locations across the far north of Western Australia? I am thinking of Kununurra, Fitzroy Crossing, Halls Creek, Broome and Derby.

Mr Walker : Certainly. That would very much depend on what work we have afoot, particularly, as I say, for regulatory services. We would respond to service requests out of the local operators at those locations. In terms of surveillance, we have a national plan, an annual plan, for surveillance. We would look at specific operators or specific sectors and generally take a risk based approach. I couldn't say definitively that they are there every second week or once a month. It is really very driven by the work demand in those locations from those operators.

Senator DEAN SMITH: When you use the term 'regulatory services ', what does that mean in detail in terms of the sorts of activities?

Mr Walker : For any commercial operations in Australia, an operator requires an air operator certificate. It doesn't matter whether you are a large operator such as Qantas, that would have multiple air operator certificates, right down to some of the smaller part 135s, more commonly known as charter operators. As they conduct operations, they may have need to interact with us. Effectively, the way the regulations run is they require certain permissions from us to operate. In the nature of their operations, that may change quite regularly or seldomly. It really depends on the nature of the operation. If they want to introduce new aircraft to their fleet, that would be a touchpoint for CASA. If they want to change their key personnel—physically there is a change of safety managers or even CEOs—that is something they interact with us about. On any given year, we would have a large number of regulatory services as activities. It is very much driven by the permissions that industry would be seeking from CASA.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Time is of the essence. You used the word 'surveillance'. Can you provide an explanation of what you mean by that?

Mr Walker : There are two parts to it. Industry, obviously, seeks permission to do certain things. First and foremost, we make sure that it is done safely and in alignment with the regulation. We also have a surveillance component where we check and verify that industry is doing what they said they were going to do or they asked permission to do. So it's basically separating the service provision from a validation exercise to go and check that they are compliant with the regulation.

Senator DEAN SMITH: I am assuming that when CASA officials do make themselves available across far northern Western Australia—Halls Creek, Kununurra and Broome et cetera—you keep a record of that?

Mr Walker : Most definitely. Every regulatory service interaction is recorded. Obviously, we are obliged under our regulation to charge a fee for those services. Effectively, they are predetermined and agreed. Equally, for surveillance, which we don't charge for, we keep a record of that so we have as full a picture as possible of the safety operations of an organisation.

Senator DEAN SMITH: In terms of your recordkeeping, there are two sets. There is the regulatory service interaction and then there is the surveillance interaction. You note the sort of record that is kept?

Mr Walker : Effectively, yes. It is one system in terms of our record management as an IT system.

Senator DEAN SMITH: With date, day, person and operator?

Mr Walker : Correct. Right down to the storage of documents in terms of the some of the documents we would require to assess an application. It could include their flight operations manual. It could include their safety systems manuals. It could include areas such as fatigue et cetera.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Great. On notice for the period 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022, can you provide me with information about the presence of CASA officials and as much detail? I am someone who is very happy operating in the detail. I want detailed information about the regulation service interaction and surveillance activities of those officials on those particular days?

Mr Walker : Certainly. I might need to qualify it somewhat. Not all regulatory services require physical participation at location. Generally, though, we could provide you with information on the nature of the regulatory services and the locations and the way those occurred.

Senator DEAN SMITH: It would identify whether it was done remotely or on premise physically?

Mr Walker : Generally, yes.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Great. Thank you very much.

Ms Spence: Another thing we can also provide advice on is we also have an educative role. We do have other officers who engage with industry just to determine and make sure that industry understands why the regulatory framework operates and if there are particular issues that they want to deal with. We can also talk to you about what the aviation safety advisers do who also aren't based necessarily in that region but who go out and visit operators in those areas. We will—

Senator DEAN SMITH: That will be recorded on the information there?

Ms Spence: That will be recorded in it.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Great. I want to turn specifically to Robinson R44 Raven helicopters. How many Robinson R44 helicopters are registered in Australia at the present time?

Ms Spence: We would have to take that on notice.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Are you sure you don't have it there?

Ms Spence: I'm positive I don't have that in my pack.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Would you like to take an estimate? Is it 100 or 200?

Ms Spence: I would give you an accurate answer. We will certainly take it on notice.

Senator DEAN SMITH: You are welcome to give me an answer and correct the record. You are the director of aviation safety.

Ms Spence: Yes. I don't have the number of R44 helicopters operating in Australia. I can certainly get that for you on notice.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Perhaps while we're having this discussion—

Ms Spence: If any of my team behind me know what the answer is, I will certainly jump in and let you know.

Senator DEAN SMITH: I am also interested to know where they are located. Can someone give me a figure? Are they located in Northern Australia? Are they located in Perth or Melbourne et cetera? I would be very interested in—

Ms Spence: We will give you as much information as we can. I don't know if we would have that breakdown for you. Whatever level of detail we can provide you with, we certainly will.

Senator DEAN SMITH: In the ATSB transport safety report that was done into the incident that occurred in Broome on 4 July, where a young girl lost her life, just for the record, it said there were 558 Robinson R44 helicopters in Western Australia. Before we turn specifically to the ATSB report, what is CASA's attitude with regard to the safety of Robinson R44 helicopters?

Ms Spence: It is an issue that we have been looking closely at. Probably towards the end of last year, just in response to a number of incidents involving both the R44 and the R22 helicopters, we did an analysis looking over the last 10 years to see whether we could identify any specific trends, be it location, type of operation or any other sort of causal factors that created any suggestion that there was a particular issue we needed to look into. We couldn't find any particular trends. We are monitoring it closely. We work very closely with the Australian Helicopter Industry Association. Obviously, we are concerned about the number of accidents and incidents we are seeing. As I said, we did do a review to determine whether there was anything specific that was linking the accidents and incidents.

Senator DEAN SMITH: You found it necessary to do an analysis?

Ms Spence: Yes. Based on the number of accidents and incidents that have been happening.

Senator DEAN SMITH: The analysis found no consistent determinants or issues?

Ms Spence: That's correct.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Did other aviation experts outside CASA find that analysis surprising or reassuring?

Ms Spence: We haven't discussed that with any other aviation experts.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Did the Robinson R44 helicopter manufacturer participate in that analysis?

Ms Spence: No. It was based on the data that is available. It is based on ATSB accidents and incident reports.

Senator DEAN SMITH: In Australia?

Ms Spence: In Australia, yes.

Senator DEAN SMITH: You didn't think it necessary to inquire about accidents that might have happened outside Australia?

Ms Spence: I would have to get back to you with the detail of what other factors they looked into as part of that analysis we did. I am certainly not saying that it is the end of the work that we are doing looking at it. Based on the work we have done to date, we haven't seen any causal factors that we need to act on.

Senator DEAN SMITH: So the incident that happened in Broome on 4 July, was that one of the incidents that assisted CASA come to the view that it was necessary to do this analysis?

Ms Spence: Yes. It would have been one of the accidents. As I said, it was in the 10-year time frame, so it dated back from any accident or incident from, I think, the start of 2022 back to 2012.

Senator DEAN SMITH: And the analysis found no consistent—

Ms Spence: No causal links or anything that gave rise to us to do further analysis. As I said, we are continuing to work with the Australian Helicopter Industry Association. We will continue to monitor and undertake any work we need to.

Senator DEAN SMI TH: Has that analysis been peer reviewed?

Ms Spence: No. I don't think so.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Will it be?

Ms Spence: No.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Why not?

Ms Spence: We didn't have plans to do that. I can certainly take on notice what—

Senator DEAN SMITH: You obviously thought there were enough incidents to warrant CASA doing an independent analysis.

Ms Spence: Yes.

Senator DEAN SMITH: The independent analysis found no consistent causal influences or issues?

Ms Spence: Yes.

S enator DEAN SMITH: I would have thought from an aviation security perspective and abundant caution that a peer review might have been—

Ms Spence: I think it was because of the nature of the analysis done. The data is the data. We were looking at whether there is any trend. I am not saying there isn't further work we can do. It's a sensible suggestion that you are making. I will look to see what else we can do in that space.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Is the analysis a public document?

Ms Spence: No. It's not.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Will it be?

Ms Spence: Can I take that on notice, please?

Senator DEAN SMITH: Is it your decision?

Ms Spence: I would like to review the document to determine what the best course of action would be.

Senator DEAN SMITH: That is separate to my question. Is it your decision about whether or not the analysis becomes a public document?

Ms Spence: I would want to consult with the board before I release the document.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Thank you very much. I will turn specifically to the issue with regard to Broome on 4 July 2020. What is CASA's general attitude with regard to that?

Ms Spence: Apart from the obvious statement that it was a tragedy—

Senator DEAN SMITH: Of course, yes.

Ms Spence: and terrible that it happened, one of the points that the ATSB made clear in the analysis or their investigation is that this was a private operation. The way in which our regulatory framework is established, we do have a high level of expectations around those operators who we authorise. As Mr Walker said, they have an air operator certificate. They are essentially providing commercial transport services. There are still requirements, obviously, and expectations on private operations, but they do not meet the same safety standard as what you would expect for a commercial operation.

Senator DEAN SMITH: In your statement of 14 April 2023, which I think might have been released in response to some media inquiry—

Ms Spence: Yes.

Senator DEAN SMITH: you do make the point that the accident flight was not a commercial tourist operation but a private flight organised for family and friends.

Ms Spence: Yes.

Senator DEAN SMITH: You then go on to say that private pilots conducting private operations for family or friends must still follow the aviation safety rules, including a requirement to hold a valid and current licence.

Ms Spence: That's correct. If the pilot hadn't been deceased, we would have taken action. What the pilot did was illegal.

Senator DEAN SMITH: What actions has CASA taken since the release of the ATSB report on 12 April this year?

Ms Spence: I might get my colleague to come to the table. Essentially, we have done extensive campaigns to educate pilots on what is appropriate and how to operate legally. We are working again with the Helicopter Industry Association to see whether there are any ways that we influence behaviours of pilots. We are looking at how we best ensure that pilots are aware of when certain requirements, such as their medicals, have expired. We already give them notice around that. It is about whether there anything else we can do to make sure that they make all the effort to maintain currency. I might turn to my colleague, Mr Marcelja.

Mr Marcelja: Within my remit is safety education for pilots. As Ms Spence said, the approach we take for private operations is very much around raising awareness and educating. We have many different campaigns, including seminars to pilots and online training. We have been running a pilot safety campaign since about August last year. That is specifically targeting safety behaviours in pilots. We are getting some really good uptake and participation in that. It is very much an educative approach. We have about 30,000 plus pilots in Australia. Helicopters make up maybe 10 per cent or so of that.

Senator DEAN SMITH: To be clear, we are talking about a particular type of helicopter and a particular type of activity in a remote part of Northern Australia. Mr Walker, you talked about risk management techniques. The ATSB report does demonstrate that there was more than one incident with regard to the pilot. I am curious to know why the risk management technique you talked about did not identify this. I understand the importance of the education campaign, but, to be fair, it sounds generic.

Mr Marcelja: I think the point I'm making and that the director was making is that our surveillance, enforcement and oversight activity is very much focused on commercial operations. We focus very strongly on commercial operators and tourism operators.

Senator DEAN SMITH: I am not an aviation expert. As a layman, reading the ATSB report makes it very clear to me that the emerging risk is actually amongst private pilots and private operators. I am keen to understand what you are doing to mitigate what I would characterise as an emerging risk.

Ms Spence: One thing I would like to clarify is that we did obviously look back—that is one of the things we do—to see what visibility or awareness we had of the pilot and any incidents that he had been involved in. All we found was one incident that had been acquitted. If you get a demerit point and then that demerit point is—

Senator DEAN SMITH: What was that one incident?

Ms Spence: I will have to take it on notice. I'm sorry. I thought had a piece of paper here.

Senator DEAN SMITH: A helicopter crashing on a boat?

Ms Spence: No. It wasn't.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Another incident in addition to that?

Mr Walker : I think I understand the incident you are talking about. It is the same incident that Ms Spence is referring to, which is flying too low. It was in the close proximity of a boat.

Senator DEAN SMITH: It hit the boat.

Mr Walker : It hit the boat; correct.

Senator DEAN SMITH: It hit the boat.

Ms Spence: And the incident was investigated. There was a requirement on the pilot. I can't remember what he had to do. There were actions taken.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Again, I am a layman. On my reading of the report, I identified these issues. There were issues around the pilot's licence, issues around the maintenance release and issues around the previous instances of poor pilot practice.

Ms Spence: Can I just point out that is one—

Senator DEAN SMITH: That is already three. There is the existence of non-reported incidents. I have here four.

Ms Spence: The maintenance release one is a very important one. Obviously—

Senator DEAN SMITH: It's serious.

Ms Spence: It's very serious. Again, that goes to the—

Sen ator DEAN SMITH: A young girl and another passenger, in the interests of full transparency, lost their life. It appears to me, again as a layman, that here was a recurring set of circumstances in a remote part of Western Australia, which, to be fair, is well-populated in terms of remoteness. To go back to where I started, I was interested in understanding CASA's presence. This is an area that has pastoral populations and pastoral pilots. It is heavily dependent on the tourism industry. Here is a set of circumstances. When we started, I was not convinced that CASA's physical presence in a place such as Broome is sufficient in order to police and protect.

Ms Spence: First of all, if reports are unreported, we can't take action on them. I am not trying to be cute or smart on that. What we don't know we don't know.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Ms Spence, there were YouTube videos.

Ms Spence: We don't spend our time scanning YouTube videos.

Senator DEAN SMITH: So your surveillance activity does not involve monitoring or policing advertisements of tourist operators?

Ms Spence: Can we please be very clear? This is not a tourism operation. It was a private pilot.

Senator DEAN SMITH: By your own media statement, you have said that private pilots conducting private operations for family or friends must still follow the aviation safety rules. You are the aviation regulator.

Ms Spence: The pilot broke those rules. I totally agree with that. If the pilot had survived, we would have taken enforcement action. What I am trying to say is that it was a private pilot in a private operation who did the wrong thing.

Senator DEAN SMITH: It was not invisible. There was recurring behaviour on the part of the private pilot, I would contend.

Ms Spence: I would contend that there was an incident that we were aware of. There were actions taken. He did what he was required to do. I don't think you can point to a recurring trend of us not acting on something.

CHAIR: I am loathe to come in. I can't express my condolences deeply enough for the families of the two people who lost their lives. I am keen if you want to keep going, although it has nothing to do with the budget. I know how flexible we have been in this committee. It is 10 o'clock. I will seek support from my colleagues. If we are going to continue questioning for CASA, because I know Senator Roberts has questions, are we still likely to get to the Northern Australia Infrastructure Facility? We are.

Senator DEAN SMIT H: Chair, thank you for your indulgence. You did give me the call. I will just take three more minutes, if that's okay.

CHAIR: Yes, fine, thanks.

Senator DEAN SMITH: We can pursue this in a private briefing if the minister is so inclined. What has CASA done since in the detail? Has CASA taken the initiative to speak to the family?

Ms Spence: No. We haven't.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Has the family requested an opportunity to speak to CASA?

Ms Spence: Not that I'm aware of.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Mr Walker?

Mr Walker : Not that I am aware of, no.

Ms Spence: I totally agree that it is a tragedy. We would like to make sure that they understand what happened and why we are taking our responsibility seriously.

Senator DEAN SMITH: I think yes, I agree, Ms Spence—what happened and future remedies and future mitigation.

Ms Spence: Yes.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Absolutely. Assistant Minister, congratulations on your additional responsibilities. Will the minister make herself available to meet with the family to discuss how these sorts of terrible incidents can be mitigated against in the future?

Senator Chisholm: I am sure the minister would make herself available if that were appropriate.

Senator DEAN SMITH: My last question goes to something I saw in some previous ATSB reports in terms of doing some due diligence on this matter. I understand that there is a section on what has been done as a result. Is that a regular feature of ATSB reports? Is it an ATSB responsibility or a CASA responsibility?

Ms Spence: I think they tend to report after the accident. We provide them with information that they would include in their report to say actions that have been taken to address the issues that they have identified.

Senator D EAN SMITH: And CASA did provide information to the ATSB on this matter for this report?

Ms Spence: This predates my tenure in the organisation. I would have to check. I assume that we would have.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Mr Walker?

Mr Walker : It likewise predates my tenure in this role.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Mr Monahan?

Mr Monahan: It predates me as well.

Mr Marcelja: As a matter of course, we typically do. While we will check the detail for you, we typically do.

Senator DEAN SMITH: Yes. That is my understanding as a matter of course. My question goes to whether that matter of course continued in this instance. Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Ms Spence, and other officials for that. We will absolutely take up the opportunity to meet with the family. It is a tragic set of circumstances. Could you take on notice whether or not CASA will release that report and/or have it peer reviewed? I appreciate that. Thanks very much for your time.

“No, I do not weep at the world – I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.” ― Zora Neale Hurston

I too am 'busy sharpening my oyster knife' - bring on a Royal Commission into CASA, this case is just the tip of the oyster shell...  

Addendum: Senator Smith CASA QON.



I note that the 5 QON Senator Dean Smith addressed to CASA on this matter to this date are yet to be answered:



QON 185: https://www.aph.gov.au/api/qon/downloade...nNumber185



QON 186: https://www.aph.gov.au/api/qon/downloade...nNumber186



QON187: https://www.aph.gov.au/api/qon/downloade...nNumber187



QON 188: https://www.aph.gov.au/api/qon/downloade...nNumber188

[*]Status Unanswered
[*]Hearing Date 23/05/2023
[*]Overdue Yes
[*]Asked Of Civil Aviation Safety Authority
[*]Proof Hansard Page/Written 131-132
[*]Portfolio Question Number SQ23-003783
[*]Question Senator DEAN SMITH: What actions has CASA taken since the release of the ATSB report on 12 April this year?
Ms Spence: I might get my colleague to come to the table. Essentially, we have done extensive campaigns to educate pilots on what is appropriate and how to operate legally. We are working again with the Helicopter Industry Association to see whether there are any ways that we influence behaviours of pilots. We are looking at how we best ensure that pilots are aware of when certain requirements, such as their medicals, have expired. We already give them notice around that. It is about whether there anything else we can do to make sure that they make all the effort to maintain currency. I might turn to my colleague, Mr Marcelja.
Mr Marcelja: Within my remit is safety education for pilots. As Ms Spence said, the approach we take for private operations is very much around raising awareness and educating. We have many different campaigns, including seminars to pilots and online training. We have been running a pilot safety campaign since about August last year. That is specifically targeting safety behaviours in pilots. We are getting some really good uptake and participation in that. It is very much an educative approach. We have about 30,000 plus pilots in Australia. Helicopters make up maybe 10 per cent or so of that.
Senator DEAN SMITH: To be clear, we are talking about a particular type of helicopter and a particular type of activity in a remote part of Northern Australia. Mr Walker, you talked about risk management techniques. The ATSB report does demonstrate that there was more than one incident with regard to the pilot. I am curious to know why the risk management technique you talked about did not identify this. I understand the importance of the education campaign, but, to be fair, it sounds generic.
Mr Marcelja: I think the point I'm making and that the director was making is that our surveillance, enforcement and oversight activity is very much focused on commercial operations. We focus very strongly on commercial operators and tourism operators.
Senator DEAN SMITH: I am not an aviation expert. As a layman, reading the ATSB report makes it very clear to me that the emerging risk is actually amongst private pilots and private operators. I am keen to understand what you are doing to mitigate what I would characterise as an emerging risk.
Ms Spence: One thing I would like to clarify is that we did obviously look back-that is one of the things we do-to see what visibility or awareness we had of the pilot and any incidents that he had been involved in. All we found was one incident that had been acquitted. If you get a demerit point and then that demerit point is-
Senator DEAN SMITH: What was that one incident?
Ms Spence: I will have to take it on notice. I'm sorry. I thought had a piece of paper here.

[*] 
QON 189: https://www.aph.gov.au/api/qon/downloade...nNumber189

[*]Status Unanswered
[*]Hearing Date 23/05/2023
[*]Overdue Yes
[*]Asked Of Civil Aviation Safety Authority
[*]Proof Hansard Page/Written 133-134
[*]Portfolio Question Number SQ23-003784
[*]Question Senator DEAN SMITH: We can pursue this in a private briefing if the minister is so inclined. What has CASA done since in the detail? Has CASA taken the initiative to speak to the family?
Ms Spence: No. We haven't.
Senator DEAN SMITH: Has the family requested an opportunity to speak to CASA?
Ms Spence: Not that I'm aware of.
Senator DEAN SMITH: Mr Walker?
Mr Walker: Not that I am aware of, no.
Ms Spence: I totally agree that it is a tragedy. We would like to make sure that they understand what happened and why we are taking our responsibility seriously.
Senator DEAN SMITH: I think yes, I agree, Ms Spence-what happened and future remedies and future mitigation.
Ms Spence: Yes.
Senator DEAN SMITH: Absolutely. Assistant Minister, congratulations on your additional responsibilities. Will the minister make herself available to meet with the family to discuss how these sorts of terrible incidents can be mitigated against in the future?
Senator Chisholm: I am sure the minister would make herself available if that were appropriate.
Senator DEAN SMITH: My last question goes to something I saw in some previous ATSB reports in terms of doing some due diligence on this matter. I understand that there is a section on what has been done as a result. Is that a regular feature of ATSB reports? Is it an ATSB responsibility or a CASA responsibility?
Ms Spence: I think they tend to report after the accident. We provide them with information that they would include in their report to say actions that have been taken to address the issues that they have identified.
Senator DEAN SMITH: And CASA did provide information to the ATSB on this matter for this report?
Ms Spence: This predates my tenure in the organisation. I would have to check. I assume that we would have.
Senator DEAN SMITH: Mr Walker?
Mr Walker: It likewise predates my tenure in this role.
Senator DEAN SMITH: Mr Monahan?
Mr Monahan: It predates me as well.
Mr Marcelja: As a matter of course, we typically do. While we will check the detail for you, we typically do.
Senator DEAN SMITH: Yes. That is my understanding as a matter of course. My question goes to whether that matter of course continued in this instance. Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Ms Spence, and other officials for that. We will absolutely take up the opportunity to meet with the family. It is a tragic set of circumstances. Could you take on notice whether or not CASA will release that report and/or have it peer reviewed? I appreciate that. Thanks very much for your time.

[*]
MTF...P2 

[P7_TOM]

Opinion - For discussion only..

Reading through Sen. Smith's questions at Estimates and the CASA responses, in particular the ones - HERE - leave me wondering about the level of 'operational control', the lines of 'operational authority' and maintenance control required for 'commercial operations' as scripted. I believe a deeper examination and explanation is warranted because, like it or not, Scenic flights are a commercial operation, as are Aerial work applications and there are rules which define and govern, under CASA approvals/acceptance.

Without getting bogged in the detail, it is quite a process to draft and have approved an operations manual section covering the 'cross-hire' and/or leasing of an airframe. Lots of hoops to jump through and many ducks to line up; in short it is not a 'tick-a-box' event.

“The CASA documents detail that the helicopters involved in these events were part of a “small satellite operation” – operating under several Air Operator’s Certificates – etc.

Interesting statement that one. To say it is somewhat light in detail would be an understatement. Much depends on how you read it. A 'small satellite operation' is what? Is it a company which owns the air frames and operates flights under different (multiple) Air Operators Certificates (AOC); or does it 'own' the air-frames and lease/ hire out those to various operators who may need an aircraft for a day or a week? You can see the 'control', operational and conflict resolution problems whichever way it works. It would be reasonable for Sen Smith to request a detailed analysis of how this 'system' works and was approved by CASA. Not only was it a mechanical failure which caused the fatal accident; it was a known, noted and examined mechanical fault which demanded serious further examination, attention and rectification before returning to  service. Under a 'commercial' AOC there would be guidelines and systems in place to prevent a 'return to service'; under the system presented there were none.

“Aircraft registration records show that helicopters involved belonged to Thomas’s company Avanova, which operated five helicopters for private, business and commercial purposes for his tourism ventures.”

So, did 'Avanova' hold an AOC, chief pilot and maintenance controller? Not clear. It is one thing to own a chopper and 'lease' it to an approved, licensed operating company. Quite another to be involved, let alone conduct the operations mentioned without;  The above statement alludes to this. Confusing? Deliberately so? I wonder...

Sen. Dean-Smith has every right, on behalf of the family to demand of CASA a full detailed explanation of the statements made; and, the CASA operational oversight; and, make a careful examination of the Spence obfuscation: and, how was it that qualified engineering advice was simply ignored and then overridden. This failure is a known killer.

Tragic as the death of a young person is, it would IMO be a travesty if the elements which led up to that moment ever be repeated; yet, that potential still exists. Complex regulation allows complex loop-holes; enforced rubbish leads to disrespect and once the 'law' and those who enforce it are disrespected and actively circumvented - ….......well..But (IMO) it will take something more than a CASA backside covering 'investigation' into proving it had nothing to do with them and their peerless 'system' and a confounded Senator to unravel this episode; a lot more. The truth perhaps would be a good place to begin.

[Peetwo]

Budget Estimates AQON update: CASA v ASA -   

I note that as of last week 14 of the 16 outstanding CASA Budget Estimates QON have now been answered. Remembering that there had been 4 CASA QON answered in the 1st week of August, a passing strange coincidence but of the 11 QON that had remained outstanding are listed as having been answered on the very same day that I published this post: Addendum: Senator Smith CASA QON. Three QON have since been answered on Friday, leaving 2 QON from Senator Dean Smith yet to be answered: QON 185 Download question & QON 188 Download question

Some AQON of interest in the latest lot: 

AQON 188: Answer: The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) undertakes analysis of trends in various sectors of the Australian aviation industry including the recent the R22/44 analysis. These are used to inform surveillance and safety education and generally not public documents. 

CASA sought an independent review of the R22/44 report by the Australian Helicopter Industry Association (AHIA). 

A copy of the report has been published on the CASA website at: https://www.casa.gov.au/report-robinson-...ccurrences

AQON 189:

Answer: The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) provided all requested information to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) throughout the course of the investigation of the Robinson R44 helicopter, VH-NBY, accident near Broome Airport, Western Australia on 4 July 2020.

This particular report did not include a ‘what has been done as a result’ section. The presentation of ATSB reports are the responsibility of the ATSB.

AQON 190:

Answer: The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) lists all gifts and benefits received by staff in the course of their employment in the organisation on the CASA website. This information can be found at: https://www.casa.gov.au/about-us/reporti...s-register

Three current CASA Board members and three CASA senior executives, including the Chief Executive Officer, were gifted membership to the Qantas Chairman’s and Virgin Beyond lounges prior to their commencement at CASA.

Switching to Airservices where there was originally 21 outstanding Budget Estimates QON - search QON here: https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bus...mates/rrat   

Of those 21 QON only one QON has been answered - AQON 260:  

Senator Bridget McKenzie asked:

Has the executive team subjected themselves to 360-degree feedback appraisals on their own performances? Or any similar form of appraisal?

Answer: Yes.

UDB!...  

Hmmm...looking FWD to Harfwit's answer to QON 259...

Question 

Do you think there is a risk that an entrenched executive team and perhaps a record breaking term as CEO tends to entrench certain behaviours or internal cultures?

MTF...P2 

[Peetwo]

Select Committee on Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements

Via APH: Ref - https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bus...Agreements

On 5 September 2023, the Senate resolved that the Select Committee on Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements be established.

The committee welcomes submissions to this inquiry. The closing date for submissions is Monday, 18 September 2023

The committee is to present a final report by 9 October 2023.

Here's the list of bilateral airservices agreements: Australia's air services agreements & arrangements

Hmmm...perhaps a good opportunity to highlight the flaws and failings of many of these agreements/arrangements that, with some tweaking and ICAO SARPs compliance and regulatory harmonisation, could lead to serious economic benefits to our struggling GA industry and the nation...

MTF...P2 

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry: 19/09/23 Sydney public hearing Hansard etc. - Don't mention the UAE??

Via the APH website:
  Hansard - 19/09/2023 Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements + Submissions + Additional Documents

Join the dots? From the Sydney airport submission
 

..Sydney Airport believes that Australia stands to benefit from further liberalisation of Bilateral ASAs and would go so far as to advocate for facilitating additional open skies agreements. Increased unrestricted air rights capacity agreements whereby market dynamics determine potential routes for foreign carriers with no restrictions on services to and from Australian capital cities would deliver considerable improvements and efficiencies in international aviation. For context, the United States has open skies agreements with 130 nations and Singapore has more than 60. Australia has only seven.

A contemporary example of inefficiencies in the Bilateral process is currently playing out in relation to the Middle East market. The Bilateral to the United Arab Emirates permits 168 flights per week, in comparison to Qatar's 28. At present, airlines flying to and from the UAE are only operating 84 of the 168 flights they are permitted, while Qatar is utilising all of their permitted 28 flights and is operating at capacity (plus an extra 7 flying to Adelaide via Melbourne, which is permitted under the ASA).

At Sydney Airport, we are currently seeing a 25% shortfall in recovery on the Middle East market when compared to pre-COVID. With 50% of weekly permitted flights from the UAE not being utilised, while Qatar is prevented from increasing their capacity, consumers are paying the price with less choice and ultimately higher airfares.

   And repeated here by the Sydney Airport CEO: 

We're seeing all of this play out in relation to the Middle East. The bilateral to the UAE permits 168 flights a week. The bilateral to Qatar permits 28 flights a week. That's 168 versus 28. When you go a layer deeper, you see that airlines flying to and from the UAE are only using 84 of the 168 flights they're allowed, while Qatar are using all of their 28 flights and want to do more.

Plus via Oz Aviation:

UAE CARRIERS ONLY USE HALF THEIR FLIGHTS, SAYS SYDNEY AIRPORT CEO



“We have an airline that wants to add new services immediately, but they can’t because their bilateral is full. At the same time we have 84 flights a week from the UAE that aren’t being used at all. That’s just inefficient,” he said.

“It leaves a gap of 25 per cent in the Middle East market, less choice for consumers, and ultimately higher prices.”

Now consider this article from Travel Daily last week:

Emirates Announces Capacity Boost To Australia

By Joe Cusmano On Sep 14, 2023



Emirates has announced that, beginning 4 November, all Sydney flights will be operated by A380 aircraft.

The move is part of the airline’s efforts to enhance customer connectivity and capacity and to provide passengers with even more travel options.

With all three of Emirates’ slots already in use at Sydney airport, the airline is able to commit nearly 2,000 extra weekly seats with the upgrade to its double-decker aircraft on its third daily flight, starting 4 November 2023.

This service will replace the Boeing 777-300ER aircraft presently utilised for EK 416 and 417.

The upgraded Emirates A380 service will feature a three-class configuration with 489 seats, increasing the daily passenger capacity by more than 260 seats.

This upgrade will improve connections to and from Dubai and access to many global destinations in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

It enhances the two existing Sydney A380 four-class services, which feature the newest Premium Economy cabin from Emirates.

Emirates is already a significant player in the Australian aviation market, with 63 weekly services and nearly 56,000 seats connecting its four primary gateways.

These include three daily flights to Melbourne and Sydney, double daily flights to Brisbane, and a daily A380 service to Perth, the airline’s flagship service.

In addition, the airline has reinstated services between Melbourne and Singapore and created a unique A380 experience between Sydney and Christchurch.

Return to Adelaide

The introduction of the Emirates Airbus A350 in the summer of 2024 will facilitate further expansion of the airline’s global network by allowing its fleet to grow and freeing up more of Emirates’ long-range aircraft to serve points like Adelaide. The airline is in close discussions with Adelaide Airport to recommence nonstop services as part of its commitment to reconnect travellers from every corner of Australia to its network.

The third Sydney A380 flight will depart from Dubai at 2130hrs, arriving in Sydney at 1820hrs local time. The returning flight departs Sydney at 2110hrs, arriving in Dubai at 0430hrs local time.

Emirates continues to expand the deployment of its flagship A380 to meet ever-increasing travel demand globally. Today, the airline flies its flagship A380 to over 50 destinations, with more cities set to welcome the aircraft in the coming months.

Hmmm...and who is Emirates partnered with? 

MTF...P2 

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry: 26/09/23 - Brisvegas Hearing, Hansard etc.

Listen live now: Senate Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements Committee - Brisbane

New submissions, including one from the Qatar Civil Aviation Authority (PDF 20508 KB):

The Civil Aviation Authority of the State of Qatar (QCAA) extends its compliments to the Select
Committee on Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements, and would like to provide our
written submission on the importance of the Qatar-Australia bilateral air services agreement (ASA).

At the outset we would like to stress that QCAA has worked tirelessly to achieve a liberal aviation
regime between Qatar and Australia. Since 2005, we have consistently requested to the
Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts (the
"Department") to enhance the traffic rights between our two States. We have done so because we
firmly believe that greater connectivity will support trade and tourism opportunities, benefit
consumers and cement our economic and cultural ties.

We have worked closely with many countries and regions to achieve a liberal aviation framework,
for example, in 2021, we concluded a liberal agreement with the European Commission and the 27
Member States of the European Union; in 2022, we concluded the ratification procedures of our
"Open Skies" Agreement with the United States; and we have similar liberal agreements with other
important aviation markets including the United Kingdom and Singapore.

In each of the above cases there have been concerns raised by some of the stakeholders in those
countries. But in every case, we have worked with our counterparts in the various regulatory
agencies to demonstrate our commitment to transparency and to the gradual realization of a more
liberal aviation framework. Our agreements allow for Consultations and Dispute Settlement
Mechanisms, and in the case of the EU, we reached a new milestone and included a forum for
regular meetings to address issues and potential differences (Joint Committee) and Arbitration
provisions, which provide certainty to all stakeholders that we will ensure an open and fair
competitive environment. All these measures have been successful.

In this same spirit, we agreed to a new Safeguards Clause in the Qatar-Australia ASA, even though,
according to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO}, such level of safeguard provisions
are only relevant and applicable in liberalized, even if not fully open skies agreements, and are
hardly justifiable in a restricted agreement, with limited capacity and frequencies.

We also accepted this Safeguard Clause because we were confidants that this would provide
assurance to the Australian regulators that their consumers would enjoy the benefits of greater
competition, including lower fares and more travel options, while at the same time protecting
national interests and ensuring stability in the Australian market for international travel.

We strongly believe, the current provisions of the ASA offer the platform to move forward in the
bilateral aviation relations between Qatar and Australia by allowing airlines to decide the number
of flights as needed by the market demand. Increasing the capacity entitlements will not damage
competition in the Australian market, but would rather improve it for the benefit of the consumers.

The amended agreement embraces robust fair competition and safeguards provisions; and
ensures that our designated airline will be subject to additional competition rules, as well as strict
conditions and requirements regarding its operations to Australia. We can confirm that under these
provisions, embedded in the Qatar-Australia ASA, the Australian government can evaluate and
study the operations of Qatar's flag carrier serving the Australian market, including:

• fares, charges and rates offered to the public,
• number of frequencies and capacity deployed in measure with competition,
• points served behind and beyond Australia,
• Qatar Airways published annual audited financial statements, and
• abuse of dominant position.

We can confidently affirm, that no other country in the GCC region has included such strict
conditions and requirements regarding fair competition in their bilateral agreement with Australia.

Unfortunately, despite we have reached such an aspirational fair competition clause that
safeguards operations, still our national carrier has not been granted with additional frequencies.

In light of the recent decision made by the Department on 14 July 2023 to reject our requests for
additional flights, which was presented through our formal letter ref. no. 2022/Out/06017/PO, dated
16 August 2022, we have officially requested consultations under Article 16 (Consultations) of the
ASA through letter ref. no. 2023/Out/04289 dated 14 August 2023 to better understand the reasons
for their decision and to work together with the Department to build a road map for future
enhancements of traffic rights.

On 25 August 2023, the Department informed us that our request for consultations was under
consideration and indicated that they would respond as soon as possible. We sincerely hope that
the Department will agree to schedule consultations as a matter of urgency and priority.

The Australian Government's National Aviation Policy (2009) clearly calls for a review of the
bilateral agreements with foreign countries to ensure that capacity available "remains ahead of
demand so that airlines are free to make commercial decisions about the frequency and types of
services they operate", however, the allocation of traffic rights to Qatar does not reflect the intent
of the above statement.

The following illustration describes a timeline of the traffic rights growth into Australia's main
gateways:



We support greater connectivity with Australia as one of the pillars of the emerging global economy
and look forward to a resilient partnership between our two countries. Therefore, we look forward
to a positive consideration from the Department to grant the State of Qatar:

• The requested additional 28 weekly frequencies to the Australian main gateways, whilst
increasing the cap to 14 weekly frequencies to each main gateway; and
• The requested additional 7 weekly frequencies to the secondary airports via and/or
beyond Australian main gateways under the regional package.

To demonstrate our longstanding commitment to liberalization in international aviation we have
included below, an oveNiew of our requests for consultations and request for additional traffic rights
since 2005, and the responses that we have received from the Australian Authorities.

 

Perth Hearing Hansard - HERE.

5 Document from Civil Air, tabled at public hearing on 22 September 2023

MTF...P2 

[Wombat]

The. Elephant in the room, since at least 1975, is the preservation by Qantas of Sydney's position as the dominant international gateway to Australia because this status gives Sydney an inordinate share of inbound foreign investment into Australia.

This is the basis for Qantas deep and lasting connections with the NSW Labor and Liberal parties. In my opinion, Minister King got caught flat footed when she automatically deferred to Qantas in the spirit of this unspoken agreement without arranging for the necessary cover.

For those interested, Qantas ensures that overall, on a round trip basis, Sydney is about three hours closer to New York and London than Melbourne and Brisbane. Direct international air links are pivotal to selecting a destination for inbound international investment. Spend a day with a VPN and pretend to be a potential U.S or British investor and you will see what I mean; it is still difficult to avoid being carted to Sydney at some point. The lack of direct links cost Melbourne its position as the financial hub in the 1970's and secured Sydney the lions share of offshore IT investment in the,8o's and 90's.

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry: 26th & 27th Public Hearings etc.

Program for today and tomorrow in YSCB:

---

Can be viewed directly - HERE - or slightly delayed via Parlview - HERE - ON NOW! 

These are the zipfile links for the applicable submissions of witnesses: 27 Sep 2023 & 28 Sep 2023

MTF...P2 

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry: 26th & 27th Public Hearings etc.

Program for today and tomorrow in YSCB:

---

Can be viewed directly - HERE - or slightly delayed via Parlview - HERE - ON NOW! 

These are the zipfile links for the applicable submissions of witnesses: 27 Sep 2023 & 28 Sep 2023

Addendum: Qatar Airways session in pictures?? -   

MTF...P2 

[Wombat]

Rewad the Qatar submission; Qatar had endorsements from the State Premiers of Queensland, West Australia, South Australia and Victoria, but not NSW. Go figure. Qatar made the mistake of disproportionally targeting everywhere but Sydney and paid the price.

[Kharon]

And so it begins:-

Early days yet; and, we can expect more to follow no doubt. Sen. McKenzie was a good choice to run the show; no nonsense approach backed by a large helping of common sense and decency, top marks.

For me, the stand outs were the marked 'differences' between the opposing elements.

Sheldon hell bent on muck raking, his team mate wanting to revisit the old, long discredited and explained events in Doha an age ago; and White trying to sneak around the artificial restrictions imposed and denying open competition, in a market where Qantas is just a banjo player in the orchestra pit. Gutter politics at it's usual standard. 'Nuff said.

But, for the real 'chalk and cheese' definition; compare the Qatar team to the Qantas team. Qatar, totally professional, factual, answering both the irrelevant and the pertinent questions calmly, openly and in a manner you could/should expect from top line professionals. Compliments to both. Compare that the 'shocked' state of the smug, protected rabble Qantas threw into the party. Visibly shocked when McKenzie (Bravo) slapped 'em down a peg or two and the 'reality fix' moment when the bluff and bull-shit espoused in the chairman's lounge failed to impress.

Well done Qatar; Bravo McKenzie, it is time Qantas pulled its socks up and if they won't (more like can't) do it themselves, then let the parliament do it for them. Sooner or later Qantas must realise they are only a very small fish, a protected species which must acknowledge their true place in the international market place.

Toot (MTF) toot..

[Peetwo]

And so it begins:-

Early days yet; and, we can expect more to follow no doubt. Sen. McKenzie was a good choice to run the show; no nonsense approach backed by a large helping of common sense and decency, top marks.

For me, the stand outs were the marked 'differences' between the opposing elements.

Sheldon hell bent on muck raking, his team mate wanting to revisit the old, long discredited and explained events in Doha an age ago; and White trying to sneak around the artificial restrictions imposed and denying open competition, in a market where Qantas is just a banjo player in the orchestra pit. Gutter politics at it's usual standard. 'Nuff said.

But, for the real 'chalk and cheese' definition; compare the Qatar team to the Qantas team. Qatar, totally professional, factual, answering both the irrelevant and the pertinent questions calmly, openly and in a manner you could/should expect from top line professionals. Compliments to both. Compare that the 'shocked' state of the smug, protected rabble Qantas threw into the party. Visibly shocked when McKenzie (Bravo) slapped 'em down a peg or two and the 'reality fix' moment when the bluff and bull-shit espoused in the chairman's lounge failed to impress.

Well done Qatar; Bravo McKenzie, it is time Qantas pulled its socks up and if they won't (more like can't) do it themselves, then let the parliament do it for them. Sooner or later Qantas must realise they are only a very small fish, a protected species which must acknowledge their true place in the international market place.

Toot (MTF) toot..

Addendum: Virgin & Qantas

And for the non-partisan pile on session of the day...

Quip of the day... 

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry: 28th Public Hearing

No EWB (Each Way Betts) but his Duck-up fairy minions were under the pump today...

Plus from Treasury & PMC:

And via tabled docs...

11

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
12

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
13

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
14

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
15

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
16

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
17

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
18

Document from Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, tabled at public hearing on 28 September 2023
19

Document tabled by the Chair, Senator the Hon Bridget McKenzie, at public hearing on 28 September 2023

Plus tabled by VA yesterday:





MTF...P2 

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry - Update: 29/09/23

First, Hansard from 27/09/23 YSCB public hearing: Select Committee on Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements 27/09/2023

Extract from page 9 of Hansard (see PS for Hansard link):

Senator BIRMINGHAM: It is very telling, I think, that the department put up a brief for a negotiating mandate to the minister in January this year.

CHAIR: Yes. That assumes some action is going to be taken.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: It does suggest that the request should enter into a negotiations phase. That brief was put to the minister in January this year, which I note is consistent with what the Virgin CEO told us yesterday—that when she met with Minister King on 20 January, she expected a negotiating mandate to be released the following week. Minister King had had the brief for a week or two by that time and obviously was figuring she'd be in a position to sign it off within the following week. It would seem that's about the same time line in which she dealt with the international priorities brief. Were you expecting a response from the minister by the end of January?

Mr Wood: We expect a response when the minister has made a decision. I don't think we'd put a particular time on it. Different decisions will take different amounts of time, depending on what priorities the minister may have and whether a minister feels they need to consult more broadly. There's a range of factors, so we don't have a particular expectation. There's no legislative time frame that we need to meet here. It's not a matter of expectation on our behalf.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: When did you get that minute back from the minister?

Mr Wood: We know the minute was signed by the minister on 10 July, and we received it back formally through our systems on 13 July.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Six months later, in this case, you got the minute back from the minister. Did it agree a negotiating mandate?

Mr Wood: The minister has clearly indicated that the capacity was not to be agreed at this time.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Did you ever enter into negotiations?

Mr Wood: I think that's a technical question—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: It is, so I'd like a technical answer.

CHAIR: That's why you're at the table.

Mr Wood: Qatar has made a request, so, depending on your point of view, you could argue it's a commencement of negotiations.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Under the treaty and the agreement, are they called 'negotiations' or 'consultations'? What exactly is Qatar requesting to enter into?

Mr Wood: I would need to see the exact document. I can check this in the—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: But there is a word? Let's call it 'negotiations', can we?

Mr Wood: Yes. There is a consultations clause, which can be where parties can formally ask for one. I can't remember whether the word 'consultations' or 'negotiations' was referred to in that letter. In this instance, it's essentially the same thing.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Did we ever enter into those engagements with Qatar under that technical clause?

Mr Wood: Traditionally what has happened is, where air services negotiations commence, there is a formal two-day process where you get people in a room like this and have a formal negotiation. In recent times, these have tended to be much more informally done, through correspondence or through virtual meetings. However, in this instance we did not have a formal engagement with the Qatar authorities or through a videoconference.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: That's a long way of saying no. There were not negotiations or consultations to proceed beyond Qatar's request?

Mr Wood: That's correct.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Chair, I appreciate that you are wrapping me up.

CHAIR: We can come back, Senator Birmingham.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I have one last particular point. Between sending the minute to the minister—the minute dated 4 January—and the minister not agreeing to the negotiating mandate in her decision on the minute of 10 July, did the department provide any further minutes or revised recommendations or revised negotiating mandate to the minister during that six-month period?

Mr Wood: No. I think the only engagement we had was to ask: has a decision been made as yet?

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Not an unreasonable question! And you had stakeholders who were asking you that question too, I'm sure.

Mr Wood: Yes, there would have been stakeholder interest in that.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I'll bet.

  
Then FFWD to page 22:

Senator BIRMINGHAM: that there were going to be questions about interactions between Minister King and Mr Joyce. So did the ministerial office refuse to provide those details to you?

Ms Purvis-Smith: We don't yet have any information on the contact that Minister King and the officers may have had.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: So you've been left in the uncomfortable position of the fact that the minister's office has closed down in terms of providing details to you of when the minister actually engaged with Mr Joyce or Qantas generally. They don't seem, as a matter of routine, to ask for information briefs, meeting briefs, to prepare the minister for such engagements. They keep the diary secret from the department even in terms of when those meetings or discussions might occur. Even when it's been foreshadowed that you're coming to a Senate committee and you're going to be asked when the minister met with Mr Joyce, the minister's office hasn't provided you with the details. Is that correct?

Ms Purvis-Smith: I think those questions need to be asked to the minister and her office.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Well, I would welcome the minister to sit where you're sitting, Ms Purvis-Smith. That would be a very helpful opportunity to perhaps get to the bottom of these issues. In the meantime, I'm particularly focused on this time frame, on or around 23 January, because we know from the transparency of the Virgin CEO, Ms Hrdlicka, that on 20 January she spoke with Minister King, and on 20 January, she said, Minister King told her the negotiation mandate would be released the following week—the negotiation mandate that your department had properly prepared and provided to the minister earlier that month, in January of this year. We also know from Ms Hrdlicka that Minister King indicated she understood Mr Joyce was unhappy and had asked to speak with her and she expected that meeting to happen the following Monday. That would be Monday 23 January 2023. The department has no awareness as to whether that meeting or discussion took place. Is that your evidence?

Ms Purvis-Smith: I'm not aware that that discussion took place. We've said that we will double-check for you in our systems as to any meeting brief, but we're not aware that a meeting brief was...

...Senator BIRMINGHAM: Can we have the officials who are watching this ask the minister's office now whether there was such a discussion or meeting on or around 23 January 2023 between Minister King and Mr Joyce?

Ms Purvis-Smith: We will see what we can do.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I would like you to ask and I would like there to be a response. I might have to keep coming up with other questions to ask the department until we get a response this morning.

CHAIR: A little bit of stick.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Let's see what the minister's office can provide by way of response in relation to what appears to be a pretty critical juncture. You had provided a brief to the minister that included a negotiating mandate that would have taken it to the next step. It would've taken Qatar's request into negotiations that would in most circumstances lead to the approval of more flights. Minister King had received it, acknowledged it and said to the Virgin CEO that she expected it to be signed off and publicly released in the next couple of weeks—that the only resistance was Qantas and she was having that conversation with Qantas. What we want to know is: did that conversation occur? If it did, we appear to have gone from a situation where the minister thought she was going to sign it off in the space of the next week or two and publicly release it, to one where it lingered for the next six months, with no request to the department for further information, no further analysis provided by the department and seemingly nothing provided by any other department of state or government agency, and, at the end of that drawn-out six-month period, the minister sent it back rejected. Something happened at that point in time, and that is the critical juncture. I hope we can get that transparency from the ministerial office in terms of that particular meeting. Of course, Senator McKenzie has also asked on notice for all of the engagements between Qantas and the minister or the ministerial office, the office being critical for that as well. You're agreeing to take that. Do you understand the urgency of the specifics I'm requesting, but also then all details of engagement between Qantas and the ministerial office or the minister during the life of consideration of Qatar's request?

Ms Purvis-Smith: Yes, I do. In relation to the timing, I have asked some people to reach out to see what we can do in the time frame here in relation to your specific request of the 23 January meeting. We will also take on notice, more generally, all discussions and meetings with Qantas at the departmental and ministerial level.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Thank you, Ms Purvis-Smith. I appreciate that and I hope that the ministerial office won't be putting you in a difficult position by not coming back. I have no doubt that there are staff, sitting just metres from where we are, who have access to the minister's diary and records of such meetings and could respond very, very quickly—if the Albanese government wants to be the virtue of transparency that it promised to be but to date is failing to be in relation to this type of issue.

And then to page 34:

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Your evidence earlier was that the only engagement that the department had during that six-month period was to say to the minister's office: 'Hey, where's it at?'

Ms Purvis-Smith: We were not asked, and we didn't provide any further advice following on from that initial piece of advice.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: And even when the minister sought some foreign affairs advice or information, that was done minister's office to minister's office, not with any direct departmental engagement.

Ms Purvis-Smith: That's correct.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: So all information that we might be seeking around what transpired in that sixmonth period comes back to the minister herself and her office and their engagements or discussions.

Ms Purvis-Smith: I think that, in terms of the consideration of the matter, there were considerations and discussions at ministerial level.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Yes. We're aware, clearly, that there were some, and we're also aware, at least from the evidence of others, that there was engagement and discussions that the minister was having with airline chief executives and others during that time. How have you gone so far in terms of the minister's office coming back to you about a meeting between the minister and Mr Joyce on or around 23 January?

Ms Purvis-Smith: I've not received any information. I think any requests in relation to outcomes that the minister had will need to be directed to the minister directly.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Is that the response?

Ms Purvis-Smith: In a sense, we have no information to be able to provide you.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Your people have asked her people. Have her people replied?

Ms Purvis-Smith: We don't have any access, so any request would need to be made of the minister and her office.

CHAIR: Do you need to go into camera, Ms Purvis-Smith, to give us the answer?

Ms Purvis-Smith: No, I don't. We don't have access. Any request in relation to outcomes of discussions that the minister may have had where the department was not in attendance would need to be made directly to the minister and her office.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Ms Purvis-Smith, you were very helpful and upfront before in indicating that you had sent a message to your team to ask them to ask the minister's office.

Ms Purvis-Smith: I said I would see what I can do, and the outcome is that any request would need to be directed directly to the minister's office and to the minister.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: So that is what the minister's office has come back to your team with?

Ms Purvis-Smith: That's the advice I have received—that the request be—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I would like the precise wording of that advice and how it was provided.

Ms Purvis-Smith: I've just received that from my team, so we don't have—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: You received it by message while you've been sitting there?

Ms Purvis-Smith: I don't have any—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Have you received it by message while you've been sitting there? Would you like to read the message to me?

Ms Purvis-Smith: It might not be to me, sorry.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Take your time. It's okay. I'm very happy to wait for this.

Ms Purvis-Smith: Yes, it did. I was looking at the wrong text message; my apologies.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: That's okay. We all have those challenges.

Ms Purvis-Smith: The text message I received is: 'MO view is it is not for the department to answer re the minister's diary. The question should be directed to the minister.'

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Right. Let's go back to the MO and ask them if the minister is willing to appear before the committee.

CHAIR: MO, come on down!

Senator BIRMINGHAM: That's the situation they've put us in now. If Minister King's office is saying, 'Get stuffed,' when her own department is seeking to provide information to this committee, then Minister King should front up herself, because that's the situation we're left with here. It is completely unacceptable to have a situation where a minister's office is being asked by officials, who have been put in an impossible position, about a pretty simple and factual matter: did a meeting happen, or did it not happen? That's their only question, and they could say yes or no very simply. I know their minister is on leave at present, but they're putting her in a terrible position in terms of public perceptions. They're putting you and the officials in a very uncomfortable position.

And I'm sorry; we're left with nothing but to have to prosecute via these means. I don't want us to have to break rules around calling ministers' staff to the table. That's not territory that we wish to get into. So, if the attitude of Minister King and her office is that they're not going to tell the department, then there are precedents for House of Representatives ministers to appear before Senate committees, and it looks like Minister King should think very carefully about doing so to actually address this question, because, to be really clear, what they're saying to you is that Minister King's office, despite a request from her own department to help with evidence, are unwilling to confirm whether or not she had a meeting or discussion with Alan Joyce on or around 23 January this year, days after she had told the Virgin CEO that she expected to approve the negotiating mandate that your department had sent up to her to enable Qatar to have additional flights into this country. Ms Purvis-Smith, I'm sorry you have been put in this impossible position. And certainly we will pursue this—

CHAIR: Absolutely.

...  

Next John Sharp representing REX:

Well worth watching as JS knows this industry and the politics involved better than most...  

Finally I note that of the 100 submissions published so far, over 70 of these submissions, are from some seriously pissed off Qantas customers - example:

I have been a Life member of the Qantas Club for almost 50 years and a member of that Company's Frequent Flyer programme since its inception.

In mid 2022, while booking Qantas flights to Uluru, I became aware the more than 190,000 FF points (worth more than $3500) had been cancelled without my knowledge. Discussions with the Frequent Flyer call centre proved fruitless, as did endeavouring to resolve the issue on-line.

On 30 March 2023, I wrote to the manager of Qantas' Frequent Flyer Programme in an attempt to seek a response and resolve the issue. This correspondence was ignored, as was a subsequent letter dated 17 May 2023. (Copies of both letters are attached).

I am appalled at the apparent disregard Qantas has for long standing customers and at their improper business practices. At this point in time, and until Qantas responds, I consider the loss of valuable Frequent Flyer points to be "Theft by Stealth".

I am encouraged to know that a Senate Inquiry has been established to look into Qantas’ business practices in general and trust that this input will give some credence to accusations of poor and unethical business practices by the airline and its questionable Frequent Flyer "loyalty" programme.

Ref: https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bus...ubmissions

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PS: Hot off the press here is the PDF version of the Hansard for yesterday's hearing: https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/dow...cation/pdf

[P7_TOM]

From Sky News :

- HERE -

About time the gloves came off – the Senate does have the clout; USE IT. Sort this rats nest out.

[Peetwo]

Miniscule King's office tells Senate to 'Get Stuffed' - Part II

Via DK's thread:

Miniscule King's office tell's Senate to 'Get Stuffed'?? -       

Via the SMH:

Alan Joyce faces jail threat if he fails to appear at inquiry

Via Hansard (ref: CBASA Senate Inquiry - Update: 29/09/23):

CHAIR: Do you need to go into camera, Ms Purvis-Smith, to give us the answer?

Ms Purvis-Smith: No, I don't. We don't have access. Any request in relation to outcomes of discussions that the minister may have had where the department was not in attendance would need to be made directly to the minister and her office.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Ms Purvis-Smith, you were very helpful and upfront before in indicating that you had sent a message to your team to ask them to ask the minister's office.

Ms Purvis-Smith: I said I would see what I can do, and the outcome is that any request would need to be directed directly to the minister's office and to the minister.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: So that is what the minister's office has come back to your team with?

Ms Purvis-Smith: That's the advice I have received—that the request be—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I would like the precise wording of that advice and how it was provided.

Ms Purvis-Smith: I've just received that from my team, so we don't have—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: You received it by message while you've been sitting there?

Ms Purvis-Smith: I don't have any—

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Have you received it by message while you've been sitting there? Would you like to read the message to me?

Ms Purvis-Smith: It might not be to me, sorry.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Take your time. It's okay. I'm very happy to wait for this.

Ms Purvis-Smith: Yes, it did. I was looking at the wrong text message; my apologies.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: That's okay. We all have those challenges.

Ms Purvis-Smith: The text message I received is: 'MO view is it is not for the department to answer re the minister's diary. The question should be directed to the minister.'

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Right. Let's go back to the MO and ask them if the minister is willing to appear before the committee.

CHAIR: MO, come on down!

(From about 02:42:30)

Apparently the Miniscule is MIA (on leave) and therefore unavailable to provide evidence either directly or indirectly to the Senate Inquiry:

Minister Catherine King blocks release of Qatar documents to the Senate


September 17, 2023 - 9:22AM

Yet apparently 5 days into Miniscule DK's 2 weeks of leave she was able to take time out from her sabbatical to produce this promo vid for World Maritime Day - via Linkedin:

Australian Maritime Safety Authority
23,369 followers
• 2d •

Today we commemorate World Maritime Day under the theme, 'MARPOL at 50 – our commitment goes on'. It signifies 50 years of setting standards for maritime pollution prevention, and the important role of MARPOL in protecting our oceans.

The Hon. Catherine King, Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, and Local Government, highlights the importance of the MARPOL Convention in protecting the Australian and worldwide marine environment for future generations.

Australia has worked tirelessly for decades in the International Maritime Organization to improve environmental standards through MARPOL.

We actively support the IMO’s Action Plan to combat marine plastic litter from ships and contribute to developing measures for reducing greenhouse gas emissions in international shipping.

Together with other nations, Australia is resolutely committed to combating climate change and protecting our oceans by promoting affordable clean energy solutions and sustainable innovation.

(YouTube version produced 22/09/23)

Hmm...interesting priorities from the Miniscule?? Happy to promote an obscure, zero fanfare World Maritime Day for AMSA but it's an 'Up Yours' to accountability from the Federal Parliament (taxpayers)?? Perhaps DK's holiday is from matters aeronautical only?? -    

From P7:

From Sky News :

- HERE -

About time the gloves came off – the Senate does have the clout; USE IT. Sort this rats nest out.

'A political stunt': Transport Minister Catherine King refuses to attend Senate committee into Qatar Airways decision

Transport Minister Catherine King said it was a "political stunt" for the Coalition to request she appear before a Senate inquiry examining her decision to block Qatar Airways from offering 28 additional flights in Australia every week.

Federal Transport Minister Catherine King is refusing to appear before the Senate committee set up to examine the Albanese government’s decision to block Qatar Airways from operating additional flights.

The government has been under fire since Minister King rejected the proposal, which would have seen Qatar Airways operating 28 additional flights between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane each week – which Virgin argued would have cut airfares by up to 40 per cent.

On Sunday, Nationals Senator Bridget McKenzie, the chair of a Senate committee looking into the government’s decision, said she hoped Minister King would “come and explain” the reasoning for her decision.

However, the federal Transport Minister has rebuffed the request to appear before the committee, branding it a “political stunt” and arguing it was longstanding practice for members of the House of Representatives not to appear before Senate committees.

“While Senator McKenzie is wasting time on a political stunt, I am spending time doing the hard work the Coalition never did to set our aviation sector up for the future,” the minister said in a statement.

It is unusual for lower house MPs to appear before Senate committees, but there is precedent for it. In 2014, for example, then-immigration minister Scott Morrison appeared before a Senate inquiry to speak about the government’s boat turnback policy.

In response to Ms King’s refusal to attend, Liberal Senator Simon Birmingham accused the Transport Minister “hiding from scrutiny".

“This is the height of evasiveness from a minister who should be accountable for the decisions she makes, but is instead hiding from scrutiny,” the leader of the opposition in the Senate said.

Senator Birmingham said that the Senate committee had been established because of the Transport Minister’s “refusal or inability to explain her decision to deny Qatar Airways additional flights” and if she failed to appear before the committee the opposition would use other methods to look into the matter.

“The Coalition will be asking the Senate to look at other means to make this minister reveal what lobbying resulted in her rejecting departmental advice to approve the extra flights, thereby making Australians pay more for flights and costing our tourism industry billions in income,” Senator Birmingham said.

The decision to block Qatar Airways from providing additional flights was widely attacked as an attempt to insulate Qantas from competition, with shadow finance minister Jane Hume accusing the government of running a "protection racket" for Qantas.

Opposition leader Peter Dutton has also raised questions about the "very close relationship" between Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and then-Qantas CEO Alan Joyce.

In the wake of the criticism, Minister King claimed her decision had been partly motivated by a 2020 incident in which a group of five Australian women were subjected to invasive strip searches on the tarmac at Doha airport.

“As I've said repeatedly, I made this decision in the national interest, and there is no one factor that I will point to that swayed my decision one way or the other,” she told reporters in September.

“Certainly, for context, and this is the only airline that has something like that that has happened and so, I can't say that I wasn't aware of it. But certainly, it wasn't the only factor. It was a factor.”

Breaking news direct

(refer to actual SkyNews article for applicable links)

MTF...P2 

[Wombat]

Catherine King MP - Minister for Qantas.

[Kharon]

A very mild descriptive – the dictionary has many, many words which could be allocated,

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry - Update: 5/10/23

Via Senate CBASA inquiry webpage - Additional Documents: 5  Additional information received from Rex, 28 September 2023







The 'Lying Kangaroo' - LUV IT! 

Speaking of which here is the belated submission from 'Lying Kangaroo'....

And - HERE - from the finally awake Press. Worth a read (courtesy Pprune)...

147 Qantas (PDF 445 KB) 

Sic'em'REX (on X) was quick to pick up on a 9NEWS article covering the LK submission...

Rex Patrick
@MrRexPatrick

@Qantas, the airline that price gouged Aussie air travellers, engaged in selling cancelled flights en masse, and illegally sacked its workers, wants us to reject further competition in the market on ‘improper process’ grounds. Seriously? #auspol

Via 9NEWS:

'Out of step': Qantas tells government not to review rejection of extra Qatar flights

Qantas has finally delivered its written submission to the Senate inquiry into the rejection of Qatar Airways' bid for extra flights to Australia, warning the government off reviewing or allowing an appeal of the controversial decision.

It comes weeks after Virgin, Qatar and Rex provided written submissions to the committee.

In its nine-page document, Qantas told the inquiry that any review of the decision that denied Qatar's application to launch 28 extra flights would put Australia out of step with the rest of the aviation world...

MTF...P2 

[Peetwo]

CBASA Senate Inquiry Update: 9/10/23

First via the Oz:

Discussions to be held with Qatar over flight block, says department



A federal government department has taken the first steps towards overturning the Qatar Airways’ decision, revealing they will hold discussions about the current air services agreement.

The department of infrastructure, transport, regional development, communications and the arts received a request from the Qatar Civil Aviation Authority (QCAA) in late August to review the decision, made by Transport Minister Catherine King.

Qatar had sought an additional 28 flights a week into Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth, effectively doubling its capacity into Australia but was refused without explanation.

In a response to questions from The Australian, a department spokesperson said “they had responded to the QCAA indicating we will consider their request for consultations in accordance with the current Australia-Qatar air services agreement”.



“The department will be contacting the Qatar CAA shortly to arrange a mutually convenient time for these discussions,” said the spokesperson.

It’s understood such consultations did not require the sign off from the Minister.

Last week a Senate inquiry into bilateral air rights heard the department provided the paperwork for negotiations to commence with Qatar in January, but it never advanced beyond Ms King’s office.

Virgin Australia CEO Jayne Hrdlicka told the inquiry Ms King had indicated she was about to give the green light for negotiations to start when the pair met on January 20.

At the same meeting, Ms Hrdlicka said Ms King shared that then Qantas CEO Alan Joyce was not happy to hear negotiations were imminent, and wanted to meet with her.

After that meeting, the negotiation mandate was not returned to the department with public servants hearing nothing further from Ms King until they were informed on July 10 the Qatar request had been denied.

Qatar Airways’ officials confirmed no negotiations ever took place, nor were they provided with a reason for the Australian government’s refusal.

Mr Joyce has been out of the country since bringing forward his retirement from Qantas and is yet to give evidence to the inquiry.

It was clear Qantas remained strongly opposed to Qatar Airways being granted more flights, after warning the government a review of the decision would be highly abnormal.

In its submission to the Senate inquiry, Qantas said “airlines and other parties do not have ‘rights’ that can be properly appealed in this context”.

“Granting them would put Australia out of step with other jurisdictions in an environment

where reciprocity is critical,” the submission said.

“In analogous fields such as trade or taxation, there are no appeal provisions in respect of other government-to-government agreements.”

Qatar Airways’ officials told the inquiry the airline could be operating the additional services by Christmas, if Ms King’s decision was overturned.

Other evidence presented to the Senate committee suggested the doubling of Qatar Airways’ capacity into Australia could lower airfares to Europe by 7 to 10 per cent, and support hundreds of extra jobs.

A report on the inquiry was expected to be delivered on Monday October 9, but committee chair Bridget McKenzie remained hopeful of hearing from Mr Joyce and Ms King.

Senator McKenzie said while they were pleased with the results of the inquiry and five public hearings, there were “still questions to be answered”.

Next the CBASA Senate Inquiry Report: Ref - https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bus...asa/Report

Recommendations

Recommendation 1

4.27 The committee recommends that the Australian Government immediately
review its decision not to increase capacity under Australia's bilateral air
services agreement with Qatar.

Recommendation 2

4.40 The committee recommends that when making decisions relating to bilateral
air service agreements, the Australian Government have regard to a cost
benefit analysis, consult widely with key stakeholders including the
Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, and publish a statement
of reasons for decisions taken.

Recommendation 3

4.48 The committee recommends that the Australian Government review reform
options to strengthen competition in the domestic aviation industry,
including potential divestiture powers to remedy any misuse of market
power.

Recommendation 4

4.51 The committee recommends that in order to reinstate monitoring of the airline
industry by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, the
Senate urgently pass the Competition and Consumer Amendment
(Continuing ACCC Monitoring of Domestic Airline Competition) Bill 2023.

Recommendation 5

4.54 The committee recommends that the Australian Government direct the
Australian Competition and Consumer Committee to conduct an inquiry into
potential anti-competitive behaviour in the domestic aviation market.

Recommendation 6

4.65 The committee recommends that the Australian Government develop and
implement consumer protection reforms as soon as reasonably practicable to
address significant delays, cancellations, lost baggage and devaluation of
loyalty programs.

Recommendation 7

4.71 The committee recommends that the Australian Government urgently
respond to the Review of the Sydney Airport Demand Management Scheme
x including the Mr Peter Harris AO recommendations to improve airport slot
management and strengthen the 'use it or lose it' rule.

Recommendation 8

4.76 The committee recommends that the Australian Government consider
introducing limited cabotage for foreign airlines to regional airports.

Recommendation 9

4.85 The committee recommends that the Senate adopt the following resolution:
That—

(a) the Select Committee on Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service
Agreements, appointed by resolution of the Senate on 5 September 2023,
as amended on 7 September 2023, be reappointed on the same terms,
except as otherwise provided by this resolution, so that the committee
may:

(i) receive evidence at a public hearing from:

(1) witnesses who were unavailable prior to the committee's original
reporting date, including Mr Alan Joyce AC;
(2) government affairs representatives from Qantas, noting that Qantas'
answers to questions on notice from senators were unsatisfactory,

(ii) report on any matters arising relevant to the committee's terms of
reference; and

(b) the committee or any subcommittee have the power to consider and
make use of the evidence and records of the select committee appointed
on 5 September 2023;
© senators who were members or participating members of the previous
select committee are appointed to the new committee; and
(d) the committee report by 29 November 2023.

Recommendation 10

4.92 The committee recommends that the Senate request the House of
Representatives to require the attendance of the Minister for Infrastructure,
Transport, Regional Development and Local Government,
the Hon Catherine King MP, before the re-established Select Committee on
Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements to provide public evidence.

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