[Peetwo]

Senate Estimates 01/12/25: Aviation Safety Bureaucracy

Via APH, the Hansard: See - HERE

And in pictures, via YouTube:

..Senator COLLINS: So the commercial pilots flying different aircraft have to do two checks per year for each aircraft.

Mr Marcelja : Two checks per year for air transport, yes.

Senator COLLINS: Do you accept that for aircraft that are not supported by a simulator in the country—if you don't have a simulator for that particular aircraft—pilots are forced to repeat dangerous simulated engine-failure manoeuvres in every aircraft type they fly, which multiplies the risk for pilots who operate more than one type?

Ms Spence : I might see if my colleague Mr Campbell has any information on that. The way that you're posing the questions, I wouldn't mind taking them on notice because we don't have the information in front of us. I'm just worried we're going to say that it's exactly as you've described it and we just need to, particularly around the actual numbers that we're talking about here—I think Mr Campbell can certainly answer on the simulator question.

Mr Campbell : Yes. We've had in place for many years an international standard that, above a certain size of aircraft—generally air transport category aircraft—the requirement is to use simulators. That's standard. Below that, there's an option that, if it's available in Australia, they can use it in Australia.

Senator COLLINS: Simulators are very costly, and I understand it is around a million dollars for a simulator—

Mr Campbell : I'd say a lot more.

Senator COLLINS: A lot more than that. If you're a small general aviation company, you're not really going to be able to put your money into a simulator. If you don't have access to simulator, then you're going to have to do this in a real-life situation—sorry, in a practice, training situation.

Mr Campbell : It depends on what you're calling general aviation. The smaller general aviation that we know, below 5,700 kilos, won't be required to use simulators, but, for other aircraft that are in that sort of scope that requires simulator training, that's been in force for many decades.

Senator COLLINS: But you are expected to repeat it twice a year—to do these dangerous manoeuvres. Is that correct?

Mr Campbell : The emergency training, yes.

Senator COLLINS: Can you also confirm that in more than 20 years there have been zero fatal real turbine engine fatal accidents during take-off or missed approach—none in real life—but multiple fatalities during training.

Mr Campbell : I don't have that detail in front of me, sorry.

Senator COLLINS: Alright.

Ms Spence : If you've got a specific example that you would like us to provide more information on, we'd be very happy to take that on notice. I don't think we do anything that's dramatically different to what other national aviation authorities do in this space, and, genuinely, if there are specific examples you've got where someone has raised an issue with you we'd be very happy to look into that in detail.

Senator COLLINS: I do. I actually have a snapshot of some very specific examples where pilots have died while doing these training checks. In 1995, two pilots died doing a take-off decision speed cut in Tamworth. In 2003, two pilots died doing a loss-of-control asymmetric practice in Bankstown. In 2010, two pilots died doing a simulated take-off decision speed cut in Darwin. In 2017, three pilots died doing a simulated engine failure after take-off in Renmark, in South Australia. In 2019, two pilots died doing a simulated engine failure after take-off in Mareeba, in Queensland. In 2025, just a few months ago, two pilots died doing a proficiency check, which is still under investigation. One was a very experienced training officer and another a commercial pilot. The total, of the ones that I've been able to find on open source, is 13 people that have died doing very risky manoeuvres as part of the training checks. My understanding is that now they have to do more of them across a lot of different types of aircraft. Would you accept, having the understanding of that—and also the understanding that pilots are dying practising failures that almost never kill any pilots in real life—that you're forcing repeated exposure to known fatal-risk manoeuvres, and that contradicts the requirements of reducing risk?

Ms Spence : What I would say is that I'd like to go through the information in a bit more detail than that. I totally understand. We lost one of our own CASA employees as one of those people that you mentioned in those numbers. It is something we take very seriously, and we have looked at it. I suppose, with everything, there is that need to make sure that people have had that proficiency checking, but I'm happy to go through the numbers that you've provided in a bit more detail and also explain why we're doing what we're doing. We will take that on notice.

Senator COLLINS: That leads me to my next question, Ms Spence. Can you point to any evidence shown that repeating the same manoeuvres across aircraft types saves lives instead of risking them?

Ms Spence : I don't have that with me, no.

Senator COLLINS: Do you accept that piloting hand skills, required to safely manage and asymmetric and simulated engine failure manoeuvres, are fundamentally the same across different aircraft types and systems?

Ms Spence : That is why I would like to take the original answers we gave you and look at those to make sure we're not speaking at cross-purposes about what we're actually requiring people to do.

Senator COLLINS: Have you looked at modernising your training requirements? My understanding is that this legislation is based on aircraft technology from the 1970s. Have you looked at modernising the legislation so that you can look at the safety features of the aircrafts that pilots are flying these days?

Ms Spence : I think it's an excellent suggestion. We're constantly looking to see how we can improve things. There's a lot of work that's being done through the International Civil Aviation Organization. We're also looking at more competency based training rather than repeating similar activities. We don't have any obvious answers for the issues that you're raising, but we are always willing to engage with industry if they've got suggestions about how we can do things better.

Senator COLLINS: To come back to the question on notice that I submitted, have you ever counted the number of pilots killed in training while doing these exercises?

Ms Spence : I don't have that number. Sorry, my colleague just pointed out to me that, based on the information we've provided, there have been four accidents, and the four flights resulted in eight fatalities.

Senator COLLINS: The number that I managed to get from open source was a lot higher than that.

Ms Spence : Yes.

Senator COLLINS: Is it the responsibility of CASA to be tracking this? I mean, these are pilots that are doing the things that you're asking them to do, and now, more often, repeatedly every year—these pilots are people with children, and you're making them do more tests, and they're very, very risky tests. These single engine go-arounds can kill them instantly. This stuff happens in real life—there's almost zero chance, and you're making some of these pilots do it eight times a year, and they have families.

Ms Spence : Senator—

Senator COLLINS: If another pilot dies performing a mandatory simulated engine failure, will CASA accept responsibility for creating that risk?

Ms Spence : We will look at the information you provided. Obviously, it's always distressing when there are fatalities. As I said, CASA felt it very strongly when we lost one of our own. I totally understand what you're saying about real life—these are lives. They've lost their family; they've lost their future. We'll see what the ATSB recommends as a result of its investigation, which is currently underway for the most recent accident. And, as I said, we'll look to see the details. As we've said, we don't just make these things up to put people at risk.

Hmm...ambushed by a young Know nothing Senator...luv it - (PS: Please refer to P9's post above for his editorial on this embarrassing episode for Pup_Spence - )

MTF...P2