[Peetwo]

Hansard out: 29/05/24

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Via APH ParlView:

Senator McKENZIE: I want to go to TIBA events. We're here for hours. I want to ask in response to question on notice 236. Do you stand by your answer that that is indeed a correct record of TIBA events?

Mr Harfield : Senator, do you have a copy that we could have, please?

Senator McKENZIE: I haven't brought copies of the QONs. Usually people bring folders of QONs, but we can get the secretariat to print off or photocopy it.

ACTING CHAIR: We'll get them to quickly make a copy.

Senator McKENZIE: You don't have a copy of 236 in that big folder?

Mr Curran : No.

Senator McKENZIE: An e-copy?

ACTING CHAIR: It's coming. We'll suspend for a minute. We've now got copies of the QON. That has now been circulated to the witnesses.

Senator McKENZIE: Is that a correct record of the TIBA events?

Mr Harfield : To the knowledge that was provided, yes.

Senator McKENZIE: A number of industry stakeholders have reported different numbers from the ones you have provided, some as high as 247 events in 2023 alone, but your numbers say there has been a total of 207 events since 2019. Are you sure you don't want to correct the record?

Mr Harfield : Yes, because some of the industry, that's to say the Qantas group, would report for each of their particular airlines. For example, if Jetstar was affected by it, they would count that as an event. If Qantas Link were affected, they would count the same event twice. There would be a difference in the number of events that industry reported on because of the effect it has on them, rather than the singular event, which is how we would report on it.

Senator McKENZIE: There are only 40. You're suggesting Qantas group double counts?

Mr Harfield : Yes. If you take the submission they gave for the white paper that was mentioned last time, they have counted the events per their airlines, not as single events.

Senator McKENZIE: Your own data suggests TIBA events are getting much worse. You are suggesting that the cumulative hours for TIBA events for each calendar year in 2019 was 27 hours, escalating to 562 hours in 2023.

Mr Harfield : That's correct.

Senator McKENZIE: They are getting worse with these regular disruptions. Do you acknowledge that the manner and frequency of these types of events are unacceptable?

Mr Harfield : Yes, and that is what we had through 2023, that they were increasing our number of service variations and effect. However, this particular calendar year has seen a continual improvement in that. It was the result of having to change around our operations coming out of the back end of COVID and that is why we report on it in our aviation network report on a monthly basis and continue to report externally and continue to work on it with the rest of the industry on improving our service performance.

Senator McKENZIE: Isn't it embarrassing that we are rivalled only by African nations when it comes to TIBA events? Our own pilots' association is scathing of this issue.

Mr Harfield : You need to put into the context, which is in this question on notice, that when we talk about service variations we mean a variation to the service where we add the traffic information by broadcast procedure as an additional measure on top of a range of other measures that we do to manage the airspace. That is different to what happens in other places in the world. The comparison to anywhere else, such as Africa, as you've alluded to, is misleading and incorrect.

Senator McKENZIE: But Mr Harfield, the International Federation of Airline Pilots has issued a worldwide safety bulletin sharing the Australian pilots association's concerns. Isn't that a fact?

Mr Harfield : That is a fact.

Senator McKENZIE: So, around the world, the issue with our TIBA events is of safety concerns, and worthwhile such that the whole world of pilots needs to know about it.

Mr Harfield : With most things, because aviation is a global industry, they are broadcast broadly. However, I would say that safety is continually monitored. The way that we manage a service variation where we don't have a qualified air traffic controller for that piece of airspace is all about managing safety; we sacrifice efficiency rather than, at any time, safety. Those protocols in question 232 go through all the services [inaudible] to manage the safety. The traffic information by broadcast procedure is an additional measure. It is not the only measure.

Senator McKENZIE: I find it incredible in a First World nation such as ours, where aviation is so critical to both our freight and commute—we are on the globe where we are and need domestic and international air travel like no other country on earth—that we have Operations in Australian traffic information broadcasts by aircraft (TIBA) airspace. I'm going to table this document.

ACTING CHAIR: It is so tabled.

Senator McKENZIE: This is an international safety issue. Mr Harfield, I'm getting the same old excuses from you. You're out.

Mr Harfield : They are not excuses, Senator—not at all.

Senator McKENZIE: Nothing changes, mate.

Mr Harfield : If you have a look at our service performance, it has continued to improve. We are quoting statistics from 2023.

Senator McKENZIE: Your own answers to questions on notice shows it's not improving. Your own answer to TIBA events—

Mr Harfield : We're in the middle of 2024.

Senator McKENZIE: shows that 562 hours in 2023 were impacted by TIBA events.

Mr Harfield : That's 562 hours out of—

Mr Curran : For 2024, to 30 April, it has trended significantly down. That's not to suggest that we are satisfied with that performance; we're not. But you're correct. The data for 2023 was 562 hours. For the first four months of this year, it was 178.7 hours. That's significantly down, but, as I say, we still have work to do to bring that down to a very minimal level.

Senator McKENZIE: Annex 11 of the document I am tabling—have you read the document, Mr Harfield and Mr Curran?

Mr Harfield : Which document?

Senator McKENZIE: The international—

Mr Harfield : The release? No, I haven't.

Senator McKENZIE: No, not the release. It's not in front of me, so I can't read out the exact title of it. I would hope you have, because it takes on the concerns of our own pilot association here and makes sure global pilots are aware of it. The guidelines and global rules that aviation operates under make it very clear that TIBA events should only be introduced when necessary and as a temporary measure. It seems you've been instigating TIBA events to manage the fact that you can't get your own workforce issues under control within Airservices Australia. It's been the Australian aviation sector and the Australian travellers that are paying the economic, social and safety consequences of the fact that you can't get your workforce issues under control.

Mr Harfield : Your question and your premise there are not correct. That particular document describes traffic information by broadcast procedure being implemented, and that is the only procedure that is being implemented. We do not do that here in this country. If we have a service variation in a particular piece of airspace, we set up a temporary restricted area around it, which is not traffic information broadcast by aircraft. That temporary restricted area allows us to manage who goes in and who goes out of that airspace, to manage the safety of it. We also provide all of the other services in addition to that. We then apply the TIBA. We do not apply it by itself, which is what annex 11 actually says. So we do not—

Senator McKENZIE: Nobody thinks this is acceptable, Mr Harfield, except you. This is your last chance to actually be upfront and honest with the Australian public. You will not be at the next estimates. You have been in charge of Airservices Australia for a very long time. Whether it is the Australian Greens, the Australian Labor Party or the National Party—we have been prosecuting the failures of your organisation for years. This is your last chance. You don't have to cover it up anymore. You don't have to use bureaucratese. This is an issue. These types of notices aren't being issued by the US pilot association, the UK pilot association or anyone in Europe. This is a global safety concern because of how your organisation is running.

Mr Harfield: That is incorrect. Sit there. I'm going to go back and if necessary, take you through.

Senator McKENZIE: I'm just going to quote the notice—

Senator Chisholm: Hang on a second.

Senator McKENZIE: I will get—

Senator Chisholm: Chair, Senator McKenzie is asking pointed questions, which is fine. You need to let the chief executive actually provide an answer uninterrupted.

Senator McKENZIE: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR: Just so we're clear, have we all got the document that's been circulated around?

Senator Chisholm: I don't think we do up here.

ACTING CHAIR: Can we just get a copy for the minister.

Senator McKENZIE: I did ask. Mr Harfield or Mr Curran, you've read this document, yes?

ACTING CHAIR: Sorry, but, just before we do that, can we get the secretariat to give a copy to the minister as well.

Mr Harfield: I have not seen the IFALPA document but the annex inside which is quoted we have. At no stage have we said—and I think Hansard from the last estimates shows—that our service performance and where it went, particularly through 2023, is unacceptable. As we move through, we continue to report to industry how we are improving and working with industry to resolve these particular issues. The premise that has been made, that we have Traffic Information Broadcasts by Aircraft procedures only, is incorrect. We apply those procedures in addition to a number of procedures that are applied. Those procedures ensure that the airspace is continually managed safely and, to ensure that safety, we slow down the traffic and we sacrifice efficiency. We will never compromise on safety. Has the performance been acceptable? Absolutely not, and I've said that on the record a number of times. However, what we are doing is continually trying to improve. We are reporting and being open and transparent with industry on all the things that we are doing to improve it. But at no stage—and I will reiterate this a number of times—has safety ever been compromised, even with the oversight of the—

Senator McKENZIE: No, because they're not allowed to fly in the air space.

Mr Harfield: Yes, they are. They are good decisions. They give an approval. We make sure that the aircraft do not get in proximity to each other. That's why we set up a temporary restricted area.

Senator McKENZIE: We can go round and round the roundabout on this. I'm going to quote the notice:

The extensive and repeated use of this measure in Australia in 2022 (approx. 250 TIBA activations) and 2023 (approx. 90 TIBA activations in the first half of the year) in Class A, C and E airspace meant disruptions to most aviation operations, including amended and/or reduced airline schedules to mitigate risks associated with TIBA operations including flight cancellations or delays, and/or diversions around reclassified airspace.

It goes on to say:

Airservices Australia and CASA have determined that the TIBA procedures described in the Aeronautical Information Package (AIP) and promulgated in the relevant NOTAMs are adequate to ensure appropriate safety levels. AusALPA, however, disagrees with this determination and opposes the continued use of the reclassified airspace intended as a contingency solution only for routine aviation operations.

So airlines and pilots are saying it's unsafe, and a safety regulator and the agency causing the issue are saying: 'It's all fine. They're wrong. There's nothing to see here.' But that remains your evidence to this committee, Mr Harfield?

Mr Harfield: It remains my evidence to this committee, and it is also backed up by the number of safety incidents that we've had, which has been zero.

Senator McKENZIE: But no one that's flying through the space. The pilot association says in another document:

Repeated short notice use of TIBA procedures in Australian airspace introduces risks such as:

-Unnotified airborne holding, not accounted for in a flight plan or fuel plan

-Increased workload

-Reduced situational awareness

-Risk of human error

-Decreased efficiency

-Inadequate training and familiarity with TIBA

-Unclear coordination between adjacent airspace sectors.

They are all risks of your approach in instigating and activating TIBA events. TIBA events prior to 2019 were generally a major concern for African airspace, where access to ATC services had been problematic in the past. Has the government or the minister been briefed on the increased number of TIBA events?

Mr Harfield : Yes, they have.

Senator McKENZIE: How often are they briefed? How often is Minister King briefed?

Mr Harfield : Through our quarterly report and then via variations. For example, I wrote to Minister King in January, after we had poor performance during December and what we were doing about it.

Senator McKENZIE: Is she aware of the pilots' concern?

Mr Harfield : I can't speak for the minister.

ACTING CHAIR: Senator McKenzie, not to cut you off. Was it an email that you were reading from?

Senator McKENZIE: No. I'm reading sections from the document I've tabled.

ACTING CHAIR: All right.

Mr Harfield : The one thing that I want to add to the material was around the short notice events of our service variations. We agree with the risks associated with that. That is something that we're very conscious of. The short notice changes are where the risk comes into the system. That's where we've been working with airlines to give as much notice as we can if we have some difficulty so everyone can plan around it. I'm not disputing—

Senator McKENZIE: Hopefully before they're halfway across the Pacific.

Mr Harfield : Correct. We try to do it as much as we possibly can do it. Unfortunately, every now and again we have the ability to have a short notice one. We put in as many procedures as we can to minimise that risk. I'm not disagreeing with that short-term risk.

Hansard - Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee: 29/05/2024

Estimates - INFRASTRUCTURE, TRANSPORT, REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT, COMMUNICATIONS AND THE ARTS PORTFOLIO
Airservices Australia

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