AOPA Australia -
#61

All aboard.

Every thing is ship shape, if not quite Bristol fashion inboard the ferry; we have a special charter today.  We are requested and required to deliver a VIP crew to a very special party. This is a regular, though not well publicised event, sponsored by the ‘Sitting on Hands Inveterate Triumvirate’. Our charter is to deliver a group from the ‘Good Ideas Party’ with a solution to a vexing problem to meet the sponsors.  

GD hates doing this job; but, needs must when the Devil drives and even though he needs a day to recover any semblance of sang froid, the tedious journey to Donuttin Island has become a regular run for us. Technically, it is a challenging journey which starts off in the calm, deep waters of the Logic Lagoon where many a great idea has been generated, nurtured, debated and tested to the point where the unassailable logic is so undeniable that there is an attempt to get some ‘official’ action and enshrine that logic, in law. Such is the charm of Logic Lagoon, that those who drink its water are made happy by and to believe in their first class proposal.

The exit from Logic Lagoon is narrow and weed clogged; nothing serious, but annoyingly slow due to the rotting branches of past good ideas which lay hidden under a thick layer of a clammy, sticky weed which flourishes in the narrow channels. There are also the ‘law’ logjams which, if one is not careful, will sink the boat. But with guile, patience and care one may navigate clear of the cloying channel and into Hope rapids.

For the inexperienced, the first running of Hope rapids is an exhilarating experience; the nerve wracking rushes through the rock claws, just below the surface, the whoops of delight with each obstacle passed and the thrill of anticipation of the next chute. Aye, I dare say its fun and a thrill for the first timers. But, GD and the crew know this stretch of the journey and can see where many a great notion has been wrecked by the treacherous thrills and spills of false hope.

There is barely time to catch breath before we must negotiate the Sleepy Hollow swamp. It is always wise to send the hopefuls below decks for this part of the journey. This is a dark, dangerous place where some of the foulest creations known to mankind lurk in shadow, waiting to pounce on the unwary; always hoping, in a cowardly manner, to snatch a good idea from an innocent, to either devour or enslave.  GD takes the tiller and I check the Purdy then we run as silently as possible though this treacherous wasteland.

Free of the swamp I put the shotgun aside, GD toddles off for a well earned ‘cuppa’ as the ferry eases her way into the broad, tranquil though shallow waters which lead to ‘Donuttin Island’. The river banks on the approach are immaculately groomed and manicured. Clearly, no expense has been spared here to impress the visitor. The ubiquitous, obsequious minion is waiting to meet and greet our passengers, who, still under the spell of the impressive approach, shake hands and check their paperwork one last time before being whisked away to the rarefied, exotic atmosphere of ‘the meeting room’ to meet their hosts.

With P2 monitoring radio traffic; nothing for GD and I to do now, ‘cept wait. Deck chairs, coffee and silence. We have, on occasion, waited quite a long wait for our hopefuls to return. Eventually, they do, but its always the same story which comes back to the ferry.  Confused, they return; torn between hope and despair. Always the same discussion – “when he said XYZ, I thought we’d got there”. “But, that was before the other said ABC”. The return journey is always a gabfest, while the ‘meeting’ is dissected and the hopefuls attempt to wrest some meaning from the meandering dialogue attending their visit.

Eventually we tie up at the houseboat dock; the hopefuls mumble their thanks and quickly head back to the rented mini bus, exhausted.

“Buggered” says GD; we have seen it all before and there really is nothing else to say. Just another bunch of hopefuls who have made the long, difficult, dangerous journey to Donuttin Island, had the treatment and been sent home to await the response from the ‘Sitting on Hands Inveterate Triumvirate’.

We tidy up, find a deck chair apiece, P2 brings the ales up from below decks; we all just sit quietly, watching the river, all wondering how many more times we shall be obliged to make the journey and watch hopes, dreams and good ideas destroyed.

Toot – Sunday - toot.
Reply
#62



Via Oz Flying today - Carmody at Estimates on ADS-B  

Quote:[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...7OCT16.jpg]Shane Carmody fronts the Senate Estimates Committee yesterday. (still from parliament house feed)

Carmody holds the Company Line on ADS-B
18 October 2016

Acting Director of Aviation Safety Shane Carmody has reinforced the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's position on the February 2017 IFR mandate for Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast (ADS-B) equipment.

Responding to a question posed by NXT senator Nick Xenophon in yesterday's Senate Estimates Committee on Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport, Carmody defended CASA's reluctance to push out the mandate until after the technology was adopted in the USA.

Senator Xenophon tabled AOPA's figures showing the decline of general aviation in Australia, then asked Carmody if, in that context, CASA had considered pushing out the mandate until ADS-B units became cheaper.

"There are many, many operators that over the last five years, individuals and organisations that made a commitment to fit ADS-B, and they fitted it on the basis that the mandate was in place and coming in," Carmody replied.

"There are a number of operators that would therefore not thank me, and would come back at us as a regulator and say 'you are making it less safe by deferring fitment when we've already made our investment in accordance with your direction.'

"So we've made very clear the directions for the mandate up to 2017, they've invested very significantly in many cases in this, so that's a second aspect.

Quote:"..there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States..."

"And the third aspect is that there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States and elsewhere, and in fact there might be more competition for equipment and the prices may not decrease, making it more difficult to get equipment closer to the time.

"[there is a] view from one group of people that it will get cheaper if we wait until afterwards. The challenge for us is that ADS-B is a safer technology, which indicates where every aircraft is. That's the safety case we're working towards."
Xenophon immediately asked a follow up question that was more direct.

"Is there any possibility given the alarming decline in numbers with respect to general aviation in this country, that there may be consideration on CASA's part to stretching out the date for implementation of ADS-B?", he asked.

"There are no plans at this stage to delay implementation," Carmody replied, "but I've only been in place a week. I'd like to look at possibilities, but at this stage there are none."

CASA has repeatedly refused to push the ADS-B mandate out, despite calls from the general aviation community to move the deadline out to 2021 to match New Zealand, 12 months after the technology becomes compulsory in IFR aircraft in the USA.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...fVUkVk4.99
 
MTF...P2 Tongue
Reply
#63

(10-18-2016, 11:15 AM)Peetwo Wrote:  

Via Oz Flying today - Carmody at Estimates on ADS-B  

Quote:[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...7OCT16.jpg]Shane Carmody fronts the Senate Estimates Committee yesterday. (still from parliament house feed)

Carmody holds the Company Line on ADS-B
18 October 2016

Acting Director of Aviation Safety Shane Carmody has reinforced the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's position on the February 2017 IFR mandate for Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast (ADS-B) equipment.

Responding to a question posed by NXT senator Nick Xenophon in yesterday's Senate Estimates Committee on Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport, Carmody defended CASA's reluctance to push out the mandate until after the technology was adopted in the USA.

Senator Xenophon tabled AOPA's figures showing the decline of general aviation in Australia, then asked Carmody if, in that context, CASA had considered pushing out the mandate until ADS-B units became cheaper.

"There are many, many operators that over the last five years, individuals and organisations that made a commitment to fit ADS-B, and they fitted it on the basis that the mandate was in place and coming in," Carmody replied.

"There are a number of operators that would therefore not thank me, and would come back at us as a regulator and say 'you are making it less safe by deferring fitment when we've already made our investment in accordance with your direction.'

"So we've made very clear the directions for the mandate up to 2017, they've invested very significantly in many cases in this, so that's a second aspect.

Quote:"..there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States..."

"And the third aspect is that there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States and elsewhere, and in fact there might be more competition for equipment and the prices may not decrease, making it more difficult to get equipment closer to the time.

"[there is a] view from one group of people that it will get cheaper if we wait until afterwards. The challenge for us is that ADS-B is a safer technology, which indicates where every aircraft is. That's the safety case we're working towards."
Xenophon immediately asked a follow up question that was more direct.

"Is there any possibility given the alarming decline in numbers with respect to general aviation in this country, that there may be consideration on CASA's part to stretching out the date for implementation of ADS-B?", he asked.

"There are no plans at this stage to delay implementation," Carmody replied, "but I've only been in place a week. I'd like to look at possibilities, but at this stage there are none."

CASA has repeatedly refused to push the ADS-B mandate out, despite calls from the general aviation community to move the deadline out to 2021 to match New Zealand, 12 months after the technology becomes compulsory in IFR aircraft in the USA.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...fVUkVk4.99
 
Also from AOPA today:

Quote:18th October 2016


Mr Michael Dwyer AM
Chief Executive Officer
First State Super
PO BOX 1229
Wollongong NSW 2500
Australia

The Hon Darren Chester MP
Minister for Infrastructure and Transport
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Australia.

- Members of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
- Users of the Aviation Advertiser – Australia network
- Government Ministers and Senators
- Industry media

FIRST STATE SUPER & BANKSTOWN AIRPORT (YSBK)
NOW AND INTO THE FUTURE


Mr Michael Dwyer AM,

My name is Benjamin Morgan and I am the Executive Director of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia.  I am writing to you on behalf of Australia’s general aviation industry, with regard to the recent acquisition of the company which holds the head lease of Bankstown Airport (YSBK) by First State Super.

Bankstown Airport (YSBK) is one of Australia’s most important general aviation assets and is integral to the future of flight training and aircraft maintenance for Australia.  Bankstown Airport (YSBK) has been the cornerstone of Australian general aviation and for the past 15 years has been subjected to considerable devaluation and destruction by its operators post privatisation.  

The AOPA maintains its head office at Bankstown Airport and has witnessed the impacts of this improper management has seen the large scale closures and bankruptcies of the businesses located on the airport.  Past airport management has resorted to desperately seeking non-aviation commercial tenants to fill the voids, rather than work to establish a strong aviation strategy and masterplan for the asset.  The result has been disastrous, with prospective aviation tenants now being turned away with regard to leasing opportunities.

Contrary to the perceived views of previous airport management, Australia’s general aviation community have only ever sought a fair go, seeking to establish a strong working relationship with the privatised airport lease-holder.  Industry has sought a relationship based on mutual respect and a clear understanding of the value and importance that this aerodrome has to our national general aviation economy and to future generations of Australians, yet we have been ignored and sidelined.

Bankstown Airport has been marred by inappropriate management which has devalued the asset enormously and has impaired the ability of the airport lease-holder to maintain a working relationship with industry.  Instead of establishing a strong and thriving aviation business precinct onsite and attracting thousands of pilots and aircraft owners, whereby the airport operator could seek to achieve strong commercial returns, previous management have driven aircraft and owners away and have left aviation business struggling to survive in a customer vacuum.

To help you understand the issue, I would submit to you that if Westfields constructed a $200 million-dollar mall, installed hundreds of leading retailers within it (each investing hundreds of thousands) and then charged individual shoppers a $50 per day to access it, additionally charged $35 per day to park their cars - how long would this mall stay in business?

The above analogy may seem absurd, yet this is what continues to occur at Bankstown Airport (YSBK) to this very day and it needs to stop as it is devaluing your asset and damaging our industry.

A successful future for Bankstown Airport (YSBK) can only be achieved through a strong working relationship between the privatised airport lease-holder and industry itself, striking a sustainable balance between commercial interests and those of industry.

With the above in mind, the AOPA are seeking to meet with you and your board in person to discuss the airport and your future plans for it.  We are seeking to understand your intentions and to set in motion a partnership whereby we can work together by assisting your organisation by increasing the value of your asset whilst developing and growing general aviation simultaneously.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to meeting with you in person.

Best regards,

BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director - Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
Mobile: 0415 577 724
Email:  ben.morgan@aopa.com.au

Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
PO BOX 26, Georges Hall NSW 2198, Australia.

MTF...P2 Tongue
Reply
#64

Dragon 1 – Hero 0.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.  Macbeth.

Mr Carmody: There are a lot of questions there. I can try and deal with a couple of them. I note the point on declining general aviation pilots, and I have seen the statistics. The statistics do not show the growth in recreational pilots, which is very significant. General aviation is characterised by quite old aircraft. The market has actually changed in the last 10 to 15 years. Recreational pilots flying two-seater aircraft have increased exponentially. So, taking the figures in one hit, it is only looking at one segment of the market. That is one point I would like to make.

In any analysis, particularly one which will be subject to scrutiny by a determined opposition, it is always prudent to ensure that each element is fully supported by ‘evidence’. It is also sensible to examine – first – any counter argument the opposition will produce. The ‘art-form’ is to, at very least, be able to minimise opposition argument, if it cannot be denied. Often it is better to begin by ‘sketching’ the oppositions case; this will assist in focusing your attention in the weak parts of your own argument. Indeed, to defend your position it is wise to seek out the weakest parts and do what you can to reinforce them. For certain sure, the opposition will be doing the exact same thing, seeking to exploit any weakness. An inability to realistically assess the weakness and risks in your argument will ultimately lead to failure.  Tub thumping, shock tactics and a belief in the ‘rightness’ of your argument does not make it so. AOPA were counselled to deal with ‘facts’ – all of them; they were also made aware that to tangle with CASA and win; every tiny crack must be covered.  The Recreational pilot situation was not a crack, but a gaping hole, a fact, with supporting evidence, left undefended.      

Single handed Knights in shining armour, slaughtering dragons, defeating the forces of evil and rescuing fair maidens are the stuff – and nonsense – of faery tales.
Reply
#65

IM very personal O. One of the shortcomings of ‘democracy’ is that the ‘power’ a king of old held was broken down to pieces, not many, and parcelled out between those who would have their share of it.  It is, I say, a mistake to believe that the ‘power’ resides entirely with the people. There are ‘kings’ with as much power as those of the olden days who reside in ivory towers, remote from the hurly-burly of everyday life. One may, with some application be granted an audience with one of these ‘untouchables’. Provided one realises that one is but a humble supplicant, with a very small claim on the little time gifted; does not piddle on the carpet, or tweek the arse of the kings mistress; or, start shouting the odds; one may, with a little luck get a nod of approval.

To actually gain an audience friends and ‘influence’ are needed. Friends who may graciously allow their support – always an ulterior motive? Of course, but that is a price you have to pay, without quarrel, promptly, when the debt is called in. To win at the ‘top table’ there is need to know the rules and how to play the game. The question “if I gave you a million dollars and a seat at the ‘top table’ in a Macau casino, how long would your money last?” is always worth considering.

It’s one thing to bark at the postman from the security of your own back yard; quite another to be hurled, willy-nilly, into a pit full of fighting dogs. Never seen one man, stood alone, in a big paddock, far from town banging away on a tin drum change the world; not for a long, long while.
Reply
#66

(10-18-2016, 02:35 PM)Peetwo Wrote:  
(10-18-2016, 11:15 AM)Peetwo Wrote:  

Via Oz Flying today - Carmody at Estimates on ADS-B  

Quote:[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...7OCT16.jpg]Shane Carmody fronts the Senate Estimates Committee yesterday. (still from parliament house feed)

Carmody holds the Company Line on ADS-B
18 October 2016

Acting Director of Aviation Safety Shane Carmody has reinforced the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's position on the February 2017 IFR mandate for Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast (ADS-B) equipment.

Responding to a question posed by NXT senator Nick Xenophon in yesterday's Senate Estimates Committee on Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport, Carmody defended CASA's reluctance to push out the mandate until after the technology was adopted in the USA.

Senator Xenophon tabled AOPA's figures showing the decline of general aviation in Australia, then asked Carmody if, in that context, CASA had considered pushing out the mandate until ADS-B units became cheaper.

"There are many, many operators that over the last five years, individuals and organisations that made a commitment to fit ADS-B, and they fitted it on the basis that the mandate was in place and coming in," Carmody replied.

"There are a number of operators that would therefore not thank me, and would come back at us as a regulator and say 'you are making it less safe by deferring fitment when we've already made our investment in accordance with your direction.'

"So we've made very clear the directions for the mandate up to 2017, they've invested very significantly in many cases in this, so that's a second aspect.

Quote:"..there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States..."

"And the third aspect is that there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States and elsewhere, and in fact there might be more competition for equipment and the prices may not decrease, making it more difficult to get equipment closer to the time.

"[there is a] view from one group of people that it will get cheaper if we wait until afterwards. The challenge for us is that ADS-B is a safer technology, which indicates where every aircraft is. That's the safety case we're working towards."
Xenophon immediately asked a follow up question that was more direct.

"Is there any possibility given the alarming decline in numbers with respect to general aviation in this country, that there may be consideration on CASA's part to stretching out the date for implementation of ADS-B?", he asked.

"There are no plans at this stage to delay implementation," Carmody replied, "but I've only been in place a week. I'd like to look at possibilities, but at this stage there are none."

CASA has repeatedly refused to push the ADS-B mandate out, despite calls from the general aviation community to move the deadline out to 2021 to match New Zealand, 12 months after the technology becomes compulsory in IFR aircraft in the USA.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...fVUkVk4.99
 
Also from AOPA today:

Quote:18th October 2016


Mr Michael Dwyer AM
Chief Executive Officer
First State Super
PO BOX 1229
Wollongong NSW 2500
Australia

The Hon Darren Chester MP
Minister for Infrastructure and Transport
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Australia.

- Members of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
- Users of the Aviation Advertiser – Australia network
- Government Ministers and Senators
- Industry media

FIRST STATE SUPER & BANKSTOWN AIRPORT (YSBK)
NOW AND INTO THE FUTURE


Mr Michael Dwyer AM,

My name is Benjamin Morgan and I am the Executive Director of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia.  I am writing to you on behalf of Australia’s general aviation industry, with regard to the recent acquisition of the company which holds the head lease of Bankstown Airport (YSBK) by First State Super.

Bankstown Airport (YSBK) is one of Australia’s most important general aviation assets and is integral to the future of flight training and aircraft maintenance for Australia.  Bankstown Airport (YSBK) has been the cornerstone of Australian general aviation and for the past 15 years has been subjected to considerable devaluation and destruction by its operators post privatisation.  

The AOPA maintains its head office at Bankstown Airport and has witnessed the impacts of this improper management has seen the large scale closures and bankruptcies of the businesses located on the airport.  Past airport management has resorted to desperately seeking non-aviation commercial tenants to fill the voids, rather than work to establish a strong aviation strategy and masterplan for the asset.  The result has been disastrous, with prospective aviation tenants now being turned away with regard to leasing opportunities.

Contrary to the perceived views of previous airport management, Australia’s general aviation community have only ever sought a fair go, seeking to establish a strong working relationship with the privatised airport lease-holder.  Industry has sought a relationship based on mutual respect and a clear understanding of the value and importance that this aerodrome has to our national general aviation economy and to future generations of Australians, yet we have been ignored and sidelined.

Bankstown Airport has been marred by inappropriate management which has devalued the asset enormously and has impaired the ability of the airport lease-holder to maintain a working relationship with industry.  Instead of establishing a strong and thriving aviation business precinct onsite and attracting thousands of pilots and aircraft owners, whereby the airport operator could seek to achieve strong commercial returns, previous management have driven aircraft and owners away and have left aviation business struggling to survive in a customer vacuum.

To help you understand the issue, I would submit to you that if Westfields constructed a $200 million-dollar mall, installed hundreds of leading retailers within it (each investing hundreds of thousands) and then charged individual shoppers a $50 per day to access it, additionally charged $35 per day to park their cars - how long would this mall stay in business?

The above analogy may seem absurd, yet this is what continues to occur at Bankstown Airport (YSBK) to this very day and it needs to stop as it is devaluing your asset and damaging our industry.

A successful future for Bankstown Airport (YSBK) can only be achieved through a strong working relationship between the privatised airport lease-holder and industry itself, striking a sustainable balance between commercial interests and those of industry.

With the above in mind, the AOPA are seeking to meet with you and your board in person to discuss the airport and your future plans for it.  We are seeking to understand your intentions and to set in motion a partnership whereby we can work together by assisting your organisation by increasing the value of your asset whilst developing and growing general aviation simultaneously.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to meeting with you in person.

Best regards,

BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director - Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
Mobile: 0415 577 724
Email:  ben.morgan@aopa.com.au

Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
PO BOX 26, Georges Hall NSW 2198, Australia.

Update: Via the Yaffa - Wink

Quote:[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...eywell.jpg]A schematic showing how ADS-B technology will revolutionise navigation. (Honeywell)

Will ADS-B Units get Cheaper after US Mandate?
20 October 2016

One of the key pillars of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) demand for the IFR ADS-B mandate in Australia to be pushed out past 2020 was brought into question this week.

In Senate estimates last Monday, Nick Xenophon questioned Acting Director of Aviation Safety (ADAS) Shane Carmody about whether CASA had considered extending the mandate until after the technology becomes compulsory in the USA to make units cheaper in Australia.

Carmody replied that there was "nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States and elsewhere ..."

According to the US-based Aircraft Electonics Association (AEA), there is some substance to what Carmody said.

AEA Director of Communications Geoff Hill told Australian Flying that prices for ADS-B unit had decreased steadily since the Federal Aviation Administration announced an ADS-B Out mandate in 2010, but now they had reached a nadir.

"The AEA represents the manufacturers of ADS-B equipment," Hill said, "and we constantly monitor and discuss with them new products coming to market, as well as any significant future prices—both increases and decreases.

"All of [the manufacturers] are telling us that the price of equipment for TSO’d certified equipment has reached their lowest price point."

If the AEA is correct, the cost of ADS-B units will not get cheaper as more units are installed in US aircraft, undermining part of the argument for the deadline in Australia to be extended beyond February 2017.

However, AOPA Australia maintains a deadline extension stands to save the aviation community a substantial sum of money.

"Mr Carmody’s and CASA’s belief that ADS-B installation prices will increase, in effect is correct, as he and CASA are driving these price increases, forcing aircraft owners to pay an absolute premium as a result of their unworkable mandate deadline," AOPA CEO Ben Morgan said.

"Based on CASA’s own numbers the unworkable mandate deadline will cost industry in excess of $30 million.

“Extending the ADSB deadline to 2021 does not represent a risk to the safety of air navigation and would provide the Australian aviation industry with a reasonable timeframe to meet the compliance requirements in an affordable manner. 

"CASA and Mr Carmody need to take responsibility for this bungled mandate and demonstrate their willingness to work with industry.”

US manufacturers have approached the question very carefully, but neither Garmin nor BendixKing have indicated that an increase in demand in the USA will trigger lower unit prices.

AEA's Geoff Hill concedes that in the USA, installers are planning to raise labour costs closer to the deadline.

"As the US mandate grows closer to 1 January 2020 (38 months away now), the installers have shared that they may have to raise their labor and install rates to meet the demand," he said. "They plan to hire additional technicians and invest in more tools and test equipment, plus schedule overtime hours for their technicians.

 "As a result, the closer we get to the US mandate, and the longer an aircraft owner waits to install in hopes of lower-priced equipment, the greater the chance that higher installation rates will offset any savings of lower-priced equipment."

Australian Flying has no direct information on what will happen with installation costs in Australia as the industry battles to complete all the work needed in the time remaining until the February 2017 deadline.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...g1zpIaT.99

&...

[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...hangar.jpg]Once the busiest GA airport in Australia, Bankstown has been in decline over the last decade. (Steve Hitchen)

AOPA calls for Meeting over Bankstown
20 October 2016

The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) has called on the lease-owner of Bankstown and Camden airports, First State Super, to meet with them over the future of Bankstown.

In a letter to First State CEO Michael Dwyer AM dated 18 October, AOPA President Ben Morgan laid out some issues the association has with the operation of the airport before requesting a meeting.

First State Super and Altis Property Partners, bought BAC Holdco from Mirvac and Colonial First State for a reported $203 million in December 2015.

"AOPA are seeking to meet with you and your board in person to discuss the airport and your future plans for it," Morgan told Dwyer in the letter.

"We are seeking to understand your intentions and to set in motion a partnership whereby we can work together by assisting your organisation by increasing the value of your asset whilst developing and growing general aviation simultaneously."

The letter also lays out the problems AOPA believes are restricting the ability of GA operators to use Bankstown as a base, blaming most of the airport's woes on what it believes is poor management.

"Bankstown Airport is one of Australia’s most important general aviation assets and is integral to the future of flight training and aircraft maintenance for Australia," Morgan says. "Bankstown Airport has been the cornerstone of Australian general aviation and for the past 15 years has been subjected to considerable devaluation and destruction by its operators post privatisation.

"The AOPA maintains its head office at Bankstown Airport and has witnessed the impacts of this improper management has seen the large scale closures and bankruptcies of the businesses located on the airport. Past airport management has resorted to desperately seeking non-aviation commercial tenants to fill the voids, rather than work to establish a strong aviation strategy and masterplan for the asset.

"The result has been disastrous, with prospective aviation tenants now being turned away with regard to leasing opportunities."

AOPA believes that a successful future for Bankstown Airport can be achieved by First State Super and the general aviation community industry working together to find a sustainable balance between commercial interests and those of industry.

The full AOPA letter can be downloaded from the link below.

 AOPA letter to First State Super

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...ao13QWi.99

MTF...P2 Angel
Reply
#67

Try ‘WAS” - not is. Try to persuade ‘the owners’ that aviation at Bankstown is ‘key; to their financial survival. Then, just watch as the Museum takes the money, up stakes and departs the fix as soon as the cheque is cashed at an indecent rate of knots. First State Super v Morgan – talk about knifes to gunfights. I’ll have a pint of whatever he’s on; in fact two will just about do it, before I throw up.
Reply
#68

(10-21-2016, 06:28 PM)Peetwo Wrote:  
(10-18-2016, 02:35 PM)Peetwo Wrote:  
(10-18-2016, 11:15 AM)Peetwo Wrote:  

Via Oz Flying today - Carmody at Estimates on ADS-B  

Quote:[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...7OCT16.jpg]Shane Carmody fronts the Senate Estimates Committee yesterday. (still from parliament house feed)

Carmody holds the Company Line on ADS-B
18 October 2016

Acting Director of Aviation Safety Shane Carmody has reinforced the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's position on the February 2017 IFR mandate for Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast (ADS-B) equipment.

Responding to a question posed by NXT senator Nick Xenophon in yesterday's Senate Estimates Committee on Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport, Carmody defended CASA's reluctance to push out the mandate until after the technology was adopted in the USA.

Senator Xenophon tabled AOPA's figures showing the decline of general aviation in Australia, then asked Carmody if, in that context, CASA had considered pushing out the mandate until ADS-B units became cheaper.

"There are many, many operators that over the last five years, individuals and organisations that made a commitment to fit ADS-B, and they fitted it on the basis that the mandate was in place and coming in," Carmody replied.

"There are a number of operators that would therefore not thank me, and would come back at us as a regulator and say 'you are making it less safe by deferring fitment when we've already made our investment in accordance with your direction.'

"So we've made very clear the directions for the mandate up to 2017, they've invested very significantly in many cases in this, so that's a second aspect.

Quote:"..there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States..."

"And the third aspect is that there is nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States and elsewhere, and in fact there might be more competition for equipment and the prices may not decrease, making it more difficult to get equipment closer to the time.

"[there is a] view from one group of people that it will get cheaper if we wait until afterwards. The challenge for us is that ADS-B is a safer technology, which indicates where every aircraft is. That's the safety case we're working towards."
Xenophon immediately asked a follow up question that was more direct.

"Is there any possibility given the alarming decline in numbers with respect to general aviation in this country, that there may be consideration on CASA's part to stretching out the date for implementation of ADS-B?", he asked.

"There are no plans at this stage to delay implementation," Carmody replied, "but I've only been in place a week. I'd like to look at possibilities, but at this stage there are none."

CASA has repeatedly refused to push the ADS-B mandate out, despite calls from the general aviation community to move the deadline out to 2021 to match New Zealand, 12 months after the technology becomes compulsory in IFR aircraft in the USA.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...fVUkVk4.99
 
Also from AOPA today:

Quote:18th October 2016


Mr Michael Dwyer AM
Chief Executive Officer
First State Super
PO BOX 1229
Wollongong NSW 2500
Australia

The Hon Darren Chester MP
Minister for Infrastructure and Transport
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Australia.

- Members of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
- Users of the Aviation Advertiser – Australia network
- Government Ministers and Senators
- Industry media

FIRST STATE SUPER & BANKSTOWN AIRPORT (YSBK)
NOW AND INTO THE FUTURE


Mr Michael Dwyer AM,

My name is Benjamin Morgan and I am the Executive Director of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia.  I am writing to you on behalf of Australia’s general aviation industry, with regard to the recent acquisition of the company which holds the head lease of Bankstown Airport (YSBK) by First State Super.

Bankstown Airport (YSBK) is one of Australia’s most important general aviation assets and is integral to the future of flight training and aircraft maintenance for Australia.  Bankstown Airport (YSBK) has been the cornerstone of Australian general aviation and for the past 15 years has been subjected to considerable devaluation and destruction by its operators post privatisation.  

The AOPA maintains its head office at Bankstown Airport and has witnessed the impacts of this improper management has seen the large scale closures and bankruptcies of the businesses located on the airport.  Past airport management has resorted to desperately seeking non-aviation commercial tenants to fill the voids, rather than work to establish a strong aviation strategy and masterplan for the asset.  The result has been disastrous, with prospective aviation tenants now being turned away with regard to leasing opportunities.

Contrary to the perceived views of previous airport management, Australia’s general aviation community have only ever sought a fair go, seeking to establish a strong working relationship with the privatised airport lease-holder.  Industry has sought a relationship based on mutual respect and a clear understanding of the value and importance that this aerodrome has to our national general aviation economy and to future generations of Australians, yet we have been ignored and sidelined.

Bankstown Airport has been marred by inappropriate management which has devalued the asset enormously and has impaired the ability of the airport lease-holder to maintain a working relationship with industry.  Instead of establishing a strong and thriving aviation business precinct onsite and attracting thousands of pilots and aircraft owners, whereby the airport operator could seek to achieve strong commercial returns, previous management have driven aircraft and owners away and have left aviation business struggling to survive in a customer vacuum.

To help you understand the issue, I would submit to you that if Westfields constructed a $200 million-dollar mall, installed hundreds of leading retailers within it (each investing hundreds of thousands) and then charged individual shoppers a $50 per day to access it, additionally charged $35 per day to park their cars - how long would this mall stay in business?

The above analogy may seem absurd, yet this is what continues to occur at Bankstown Airport (YSBK) to this very day and it needs to stop as it is devaluing your asset and damaging our industry.

A successful future for Bankstown Airport (YSBK) can only be achieved through a strong working relationship between the privatised airport lease-holder and industry itself, striking a sustainable balance between commercial interests and those of industry.

With the above in mind, the AOPA are seeking to meet with you and your board in person to discuss the airport and your future plans for it.  We are seeking to understand your intentions and to set in motion a partnership whereby we can work together by assisting your organisation by increasing the value of your asset whilst developing and growing general aviation simultaneously.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to meeting with you in person.

Best regards,

BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director - Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
Mobile: 0415 577 724
Email:  ben.morgan@aopa.com.au

Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
PO BOX 26, Georges Hall NSW 2198, Australia.

Update: Via the Yaffa - Wink

Quote:[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...eywell.jpg]A schematic showing how ADS-B technology will revolutionise navigation. (Honeywell)

Will ADS-B Units get Cheaper after US Mandate?
20 October 2016

One of the key pillars of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) demand for the IFR ADS-B mandate in Australia to be pushed out past 2020 was brought into question this week.

In Senate estimates last Monday, Nick Xenophon questioned Acting Director of Aviation Safety (ADAS) Shane Carmody about whether CASA had considered extending the mandate until after the technology becomes compulsory in the USA to make units cheaper in Australia.

Carmody replied that there was "nothing to suggest that the prices will decrease as fitment increases in the United States and elsewhere ..."

According to the US-based Aircraft Electonics Association (AEA), there is some substance to what Carmody said.

AEA Director of Communications Geoff Hill told Australian Flying that prices for ADS-B unit had decreased steadily since the Federal Aviation Administration announced an ADS-B Out mandate in 2010, but now they had reached a nadir.

"The AEA represents the manufacturers of ADS-B equipment," Hill said, "and we constantly monitor and discuss with them new products coming to market, as well as any significant future prices—both increases and decreases.

"All of [the manufacturers] are telling us that the price of equipment for TSO’d certified equipment has reached their lowest price point."

If the AEA is correct, the cost of ADS-B units will not get cheaper as more units are installed in US aircraft, undermining part of the argument for the deadline in Australia to be extended beyond February 2017.

However, AOPA Australia maintains a deadline extension stands to save the aviation community a substantial sum of money.

"Mr Carmody’s and CASA’s belief that ADS-B installation prices will increase, in effect is correct, as he and CASA are driving these price increases, forcing aircraft owners to pay an absolute premium as a result of their unworkable mandate deadline," AOPA CEO Ben Morgan said.

"Based on CASA’s own numbers the unworkable mandate deadline will cost industry in excess of $30 million.

“Extending the ADSB deadline to 2021 does not represent a risk to the safety of air navigation and would provide the Australian aviation industry with a reasonable timeframe to meet the compliance requirements in an affordable manner. 

"CASA and Mr Carmody need to take responsibility for this bungled mandate and demonstrate their willingness to work with industry.”

US manufacturers have approached the question very carefully, but neither Garmin nor BendixKing have indicated that an increase in demand in the USA will trigger lower unit prices.

AEA's Geoff Hill concedes that in the USA, installers are planning to raise labour costs closer to the deadline.

"As the US mandate grows closer to 1 January 2020 (38 months away now), the installers have shared that they may have to raise their labor and install rates to meet the demand," he said. "They plan to hire additional technicians and invest in more tools and test equipment, plus schedule overtime hours for their technicians.

 "As a result, the closer we get to the US mandate, and the longer an aircraft owner waits to install in hopes of lower-priced equipment, the greater the chance that higher installation rates will offset any savings of lower-priced equipment."

Australian Flying has no direct information on what will happen with installation costs in Australia as the industry battles to complete all the work needed in the time remaining until the February 2017 deadline.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...g1zpIaT.99

&...

[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...hangar.jpg]Once the busiest GA airport in Australia, Bankstown has been in decline over the last decade. (Steve Hitchen)

AOPA calls for Meeting over Bankstown
20 October 2016

The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) has called on the lease-owner of Bankstown and Camden airports, First State Super, to meet with them over the future of Bankstown.

In a letter to First State CEO Michael Dwyer AM dated 18 October, AOPA President Ben Morgan laid out some issues the association has with the operation of the airport before requesting a meeting.

First State Super and Altis Property Partners, bought BAC Holdco from Mirvac and Colonial First State for a reported $203 million in December 2015.

"AOPA are seeking to meet with you and your board in person to discuss the airport and your future plans for it," Morgan told Dwyer in the letter.

"We are seeking to understand your intentions and to set in motion a partnership whereby we can work together by assisting your organisation by increasing the value of your asset whilst developing and growing general aviation simultaneously."

The letter also lays out the problems AOPA believes are restricting the ability of GA operators to use Bankstown as a base, blaming most of the airport's woes on what it believes is poor management.

"Bankstown Airport is one of Australia’s most important general aviation assets and is integral to the future of flight training and aircraft maintenance for Australia," Morgan says. "Bankstown Airport has been the cornerstone of Australian general aviation and for the past 15 years has been subjected to considerable devaluation and destruction by its operators post privatisation.

"The AOPA maintains its head office at Bankstown Airport and has witnessed the impacts of this improper management has seen the large scale closures and bankruptcies of the businesses located on the airport. Past airport management has resorted to desperately seeking non-aviation commercial tenants to fill the voids, rather than work to establish a strong aviation strategy and masterplan for the asset.

"The result has been disastrous, with prospective aviation tenants now being turned away with regard to leasing opportunities."

AOPA believes that a successful future for Bankstown Airport can be achieved by First State Super and the general aviation community industry working together to find a sustainable balance between commercial interests and those of industry.

The full AOPA letter can be downloaded from the link below.

 AOPA letter to First State Super

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...ao13QWi.99
 
Update: Via Oz Flying

Quote:[Image: http%3A%2F%2Fyaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com%...angars.jpg]Leased hangars at Bankstown. (Steve Hitchen)

First State Super to organise Bankstown Meeting
25 October 2016
  
First State Super CEO Michael Dwyer AM has promised to arrange a meeting to discuss the future of Bankstown Airport, according to the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA).

Last week, AOPA CEO Ben Morgan wrote to Dwyer outlining concerns with the health of general aviation at Bankstown offering to collaborate with the lease-holder to improve the outlook. First State Super is one of the co-owners of BAC Holdco, which owns the lease for the airport.

In a letter to members today, Morgan outlined the reply he received from First State.
"I have today received a response from Mr Michael Dwyer AM, CEO of First State Super, who has advised that he is now organising a meeting between AOPA and the airport head-lease holder, so that we may open discussions with regard to the future of the airport and general aviation within the Sydney Basin.

"The AOPA believes the meeting is an important first step towards clear and open communication between industry and the new lease-holder, with a view towards establishing a working relationship that can deliver higher airport asset values and increased industry activity and output.

"The past 15 years for the aviation community at Bankstown Airport has been devastating, with aviation tenants forced to accept unconscionable lease valuation increases with unworkable short tenures. The result of the historical mismanagement has been the large scale destruction of the aviation business community at both Bankstown and Camden airports, damaging the national general aviation economy."

Bankstown Airport has experienced a 33% drop in movements between the 2001 and 2015 calendar years. In 2001 Bankstown was ranked as the busiest airport in Australia, but by December 2015 had slipped to sixth behind Sydney, Moorabbin, Parafield, Melbourne and Jandakot.

Figures for Camden in that period have increased 33%, but the 24,770 increase in movements at Camden does not completely offset the 111,254 movements lost at Bankstown.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...0fxdLEt.99

MTF...P2 Cool
Reply
#69

Of making airports great again

Bravo AOPA bravo. It's heartening to see an organisation such as AOPA trying to make a firm yet professional stand against the corporate sharks. Seeking consultation and offering to work together is a mature approach and an outward display of not only true grit and determination, but is evidence that organisations want to work with airports and not against them.

Word of caution:
Ben, don't light up the BBQ airside mate, it could ignite all the toxic sludge that the EPA just happened to miss, buried beneath the runway.
Reply
#70

Dear Mr Comardy (c/o Fort Fumble) Rolleyes

Quote:30th November 2016
 
 
Mr Shane Carmody
Acting Director of Aviation Safety
Civil Aviation Safety Authority
GPO Box 2005
Canberra ACT 2601
Australia
 
Mr Rob Walker
Group Manager
CASA Stakeholder Engagement Group
GPO Box 2005
Canberra ACT 2601
Australia
 
The Hon Darren Chester MP
Minister for Infrastructure and Transport
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Australia.
 
- Members of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
- Users of the Aviation Advertiser – Australia network
- Government Ministers and Senators
- Industry media
 
 
AOPA Australia calls on CASA to give a genuine commitment to consult and negotiate with industry on ADSB 2020 extension
 
 
Mr Carmody,
 
I am writing to you on behalf of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia in response to your November 2016 CASA Briefing Newsletter and your recent ADSB 2020 announcement.
 
As you would be aware, the AOPA Australia have been actively communicating (to CASA and the Minister’s office) on behalf of the general aviation industry, seeking an extension to the ADSB 2017 deadline so as to provide urgent industry assistance and relief.  
 
The AOPA Australia call to extend has been in response to considerable feedback from both commercial general aviation operators and private aircraft owners who are being unfairly disadvantaged as a result of CASA and Airservices premature ADSB 2017 installation mandate. 
 
Throughout meetings with CASA across the past five months, representatives of your organisation have continually refused to openly discuss the ADSB issue and extension request, stating that no extension was being considered or would be considered by CASA.   The regulators stance has also been communicated by yourself in recent Senate Estimates hearings, clearly signaling a refusal to engage on the topic.
 
The AOPA Australia wish to be clear in communicating that there has been NO genuine discussion, NO genuine consideration and NO genuine consultation by CASA with industry on the ADSB extension issue.  There has been NO genuine opportunity to collectively discuss the merits of both CASA’s position and that of industry, an entirely unacceptable situation.
 
As a result of the above CASA’s recently announced ADSB 2020 extension instrument does not reflect the needs of the Australian general aviation industry and is entirely unworkable in its present form, providing no genuine value or relief to industry at a time when it is needed most.
 
The CASA ADSB 2020 instrument is an insult to industry and serves to reinforce the findings of the recent Colmar Brunton report that demonstrates that less than 30% of our industry has any trust or faith in the decisions CASA is making.  
 
The announcement does nothing towards bridging the deep divide that exists between the regulator and industry, a trust vacuum which has been earned by CASA through decades of inappropriate general aviation management and regulatory neglect.
 
Mr Carmody, as acting CEO and Director of Aviation Safety you have published a number of public statements which include; “CASA faces many challenges in today’s aviation environment and discussing issues and listening to feedback is one of the keys to finding the right responses to these challenges” and “I look forward to the support of the aviation community to contribute to this significant commitment through a collaborative and co-operative approach”.
 
With respect to the ADSB 2020 extension and your public statements, CASA in all honesty cannot claim to have genuinely discussed and listened to industry on the issue, nor can you objectively expect the support of the aviation community as a result of not doing so.
 
The ADSB 2020 announcement is a calculated and deceptive political sleight of hand that is designed to make it appear as if CASA are working to assist industry, when in fact CASA are doing nothing and giving nothing.
 
Therefore, the AOPA Australia are calling on you to convene a meeting next week in Canberra with industry so that we may openly discuss the ADSB issue and for CASA to provide a clear commitment to undertake genuine consultation and negotiation, so as to arrive at a workable industry solution that provides honest assistance on the issue of ADSB going forward.
 
We would appreciate a formal response.
 
Yours sincerely,
 
BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director - Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) 
 
Mobile: 0415 577 724
Telephone: (02) 9791 9099
Email: ben.morgan@aopa.com.au


 L&Ks Ben Morgan CEO AOPAOz Wink
Reply
#71

Up yours Ben-konobi Morgan - L&Ks Comardy Big Grin

Following on from the recent additions from the Fort Fumble PR (retch Confused ) machine...
(11-30-2016, 09:46 AM)Peetwo Wrote:  [Image: RAAA-Jim-Davis-quote.jpg]

(10-25-2016, 09:52 AM)Peetwo Wrote:  [Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_aBhRFFOl6XqooIMbF6d...ASn-ShDkLw]

Why U NO speak English? Big Grin

The latest KC & AMROBA newsletter (like the above meme) offering revolves around the common theme of why it is we have voluminous, convoluted, poorly worded & impossible to understand regulations and the detrimental 'knock on' effects this has to industry:

Quote:..Correctly worded regulations and standards are clear and concise, i.e. understandable. Sadly, what has been produced over the last decade has raised more confusion than clarity and one of the main reasons is the failure to adopt and use international terminology and definitions. Instead, we have poorly worded regulations and standards very unique to Australia...


However, CASA converted this international standard (specialised services) into the need for "specialist". Qualified persons are not "specialists". e.g. CAR30 "qualified persons".

Regulations, Manual of Standards and advisory material impose this "uniquely" CASA approach on our industry because international terminology was purposely ignored...

...CASA is now involved with industrial matters. What was the safety case used to apply a unique and potentially costly "job classifications" on industry? How come CASA have become the experts in determining what maintenance tasks, which qualified persons have been performing safely for decades, are now to be treated as "specialist" tasks? CASA admits it does not have the expertise, this provision confirms it.

This use of improper terminology has already seen industrial issues raised in Parliament about the need for "specialists" that did not exist before the creation of CASRs and demonstrates the mindset of those instructing regulation drafters.

Australian industries have been multi-skilling to improve efficiency, productivity and innovation by nurturing an employee’s talent so the employee feels they are being used to improve the performance of the workplace. The adoption of "specialist" is a retrograde step that is damaging the industrial benefits that have been attained over the last couple of decades by governments and unions working to upskill the workforce...


Another misunderstanding: Instead of adopting the ICAO standards that states a maintenance release is a "certification" in a document. The CASA applied standard requires a certificate to be issued instead of a certification to be made in records.

The only conclusion that industry can come to is that those in CASA do not, or did not, understand the ramifications of poorly worded regulations and standards especially when only half the foreign system is adopted.
 
Reference part 4 latest AMROBA newsletter: Volume 13 Issue 10 (October 1016)


Quote:[Image: AMROBA-speak-English.jpg]

Come on Wingnut you know KC speaks in plain English... Rolleyes Get rid of the witch doctor, employ Mike Smith ASAP to reform CASA; adopt either of the NZed or US plain English (easy to read & understand) regulations, then stand back and watch the accolades roll in for yourself, Murky and the minister, as the industry flourishes and contributes greatly to 'jobs, growth' and the Aussie GDP - Big Grin

[Image: Dr-A.jpg]

Dr Voodoo & Wodger on the fine art of spinning BS on RRP - Dodgy


The following puff piece by FF almost perfectly highlights how completely out of touch with reality Dr Hoo-doo-yoo-doo-as-I-say and Wodger-week-as-piss is when it comes to first  World aviation regulation

Caution: BYOB will be required - Confused }



How does anyone in their right mind expect us to believe in a witchdoctor who brought us over 4000 notified differences to ICAO SARPs and 100's of thousands of extra prescriptive pages of totally unreadable regulations for the better part of 3 decades? - UDB! Dodgy

...it would appear that another 'Ghost who walks' from the Fort Fumble stables is quick to water down and obfuscate some of the less subservient members of the IOS and Alphabet Soups. Courtesy of the Yaffa.. Rolleyes :
Quote:[Image: CASA_HQ_Canberra_34A177E0-8025-11E4-B807...DC10A6.jpg]
Aviation House: CASA's headquarters in the Canberra suburb of Woden. (Bidgee)

CASA hits back at Consultation Claims
1 December 2016

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has issued a statement refuting the claims by AOPA Australia that the regulator failed to consult over the ADS-B issue.

Sent out today, the statement was in response to AOPA CEO Ben Morgan who claimed in a letter to CASA Acting Director of Aviation Safety, Shane Carmody, that CASA had not genuinely consulted the general aviation community.

"CASA has consulted comprehensively with the aviation community on the introduction of ADS-B over more than nine years, including with AOPA," the statement says.

"It was agreed by aviation industry representatives, including AOPA, that ADS-B would be phased in over a three year period commencing in December 2013.

"AOPA wrote to CASA in 2012 and congratulated CASA on its consultation process for ADS-B implementation, including the mandate for all IFR aircraft to be fitted by February 2017.

"The recent changes announced by CASA to the ADS-B fitment deadline for private operations was a positive initiative developed in response to feedback from the general aviation community. CASA listened to this feedback and developed a package of changes that maintains operational safety while allowing more time for private IFR operators to fit the equipment.

"This initiative provides relief to private operators and will allow for the orderly fitment of the remaining IFR aircraft."

CASA also explained why the ADS-B deadline extension was limited to IFR aircraft operated in the private category only.

"The ADS-B extension does not include commercial operations as the fitment rate is already very high. Eighty-nine per cent of IFR flights are already conducted in ADS-B equipped aircraft, with this predicted to rise to 95% by February 2017.

"CASA thanks the many IFR operators and more than 300 VFR operators who have already fitted ADS-B and are reaping the safety and operational benefits of the equipment."

AOPA Australia has called on CASA to meet with them in Canberra next week to further discuss the issue.

Read more at http://www.australianflying.com.au/lates...g7DlUKh.99

No comment - Rolleyes


MTF...P2 Tongue
Reply
#72

Update 02/12/16: CASA ADS-B sham.

Via the Oz:
Quote:Pilots slam CASA over caveats
[Image: 7c332a9c51807769fb6fef6553408ead]12:00amMITCHELL BINGEMANN

Aircraft owners and pilots have slammed a ruling by CASA to delay mandatory installation of air navigation systems.
Quote:The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association has attacked a recent ruling by the aviation regulator to delay the mandatory installation of expensive air navigation systems, saying the decision will have little impact on aircraft operators and is
little more than political subterfuge.

In a withering letter sent to Civil Aviation Safety Authority acting chief executive Shane Carmody, AOPA executive director Ben Morgan describes the deadline delay (from next year to 2020) as meaningless and calls on the regulator to urgently convene a meeting in Canberra next week to discuss the ADS-B issue.

ADS-B (Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast) is an advanced air navigation system that uses satellite GPS data to determine the position, direction, speed and altitude of aircraft. That information is relayed in real time to air traffic controllers via ground stations.

AOPA had lobbied for the introduction of ADS-B to be pushed back from 2017 to 2020, when the US brings it into play, saying the costly system would destroy Australia’s already struggling general aviation sector.

But Mr Morgan said conditions attached to the decision to push back the deadline would render it meaningless to the pilots and aircraft operators most affected by the mandate.

He said the recently announced deadline delay did not go far enough and failed to provide financial relief to aircraft operators, as it would affect only a small number of pilots.

Those conditions mean aircraft conducting private operations under instrument flight rules without ADS-B will be required to operate below 10,000 feet in uncontrolled class G airspace and in class D airspace they will be subject to air traffic control clearance.

It also means they can operate in class C and E airspace only to facilitate arrival or departure from a class D aerodrome, with prior clearance from ATC and only if fitted with a secondary surveillance radar transponder.

“This is just completely unworkable. The restrictions mean that the extension will only apply to very, very limited number of pilots,” Mr Morgan told The Australian.
“ADS-B doesn’t service below 10,000 feet so what’s the point? We want all airspace limitations removed.

“We feel this extension was deliberately and deceptively put out and we demand that CASA come to the negotiation table and review this ridiculous decision.”

Mr Morgan says in his letter to Mr Carmody: “The ADS-B 2020 announcement is a calculated and deceptive political sleight of hand that is designed to make it appear as if CASA are working to assist industry, when in fact CASA are doing nothing and giving nothing.

“The announcement does nothing towards bridging the deep divide that exists between the regulator and industry, a trust vacuum which has been earned by CASA through decades of inappropriate general aviation management and regulatory neglect.”

A CASA spokesman hit back at Mr Morgan’s claims, saying the regulator consulted comprehensively with the aviation community on the introduction of ADS-B over more than nine years, including with AOPA.

“It was agreed by aviation industry representatives, including AOPA, that ADS-B would be phased in over a three-year period commencing in December 2013,” the spokesman said.

“AOPA wrote to CASA in 2012 and congratulated CASA on its consultation process for ADS-B implementation, including the mandate for all IFR aircraft to be fitted by February 2017.

“This initiative provides relief to private operators and will allow for the orderly fitment of the remaining IFR aircraft.’’

CASA is considering whether it will meet with AOPA.

Dear miniscule - ASIC card AOPA plea.

Via BM (AOPA Oz) this AM:
Quote:AOPA Australia calls on the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Mr Darren Chester to effect the ASRR 2014 ASIC recommendation before the close of 2016, giving general aviation relief this Christmas.
 
Friday, 2nd December 2016
 
The Hon Darren Chester MP
Minister for Infrastructure and Transport
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600, Australia.

 
Dear Minister,
 
I am writing to you on behalf of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia in full support of Mr Dick Smith’s recent submission to your office regarding Aviation Security Identification Card (ASIC) for general aviation.
 
As you are aware and have acknowledged recently with the announcement of your review into general aviation decline, Australia’s general aviation industry is suffering under the weight of a wide gambit of regulatory and economic pressures that have forced some 8,000+ pilots to exit in just the past 10 years.
 
The industry has experienced the largest decline in aviation businesses throughout the same period, along with the largest skills departure and shortage in the history of general aviation in this country. More than ever, our industry needs your leadership and attention for it to recover and achieve its potential.
 
The decline in general aviation been assisted by unnecessary regulatory overreach which includes the ASIC scheme that was identified during the Aviation Safety Regulation Review (ASRR) May 2014 (“The Forsyth Report”) as having “… a significant regulatory impost on the industry..” and “… without delivering a commensurate security benefit”.
 
The ASRR put forward its recommendation to government in 2014, that specified;
“The Australian Government amends regulations so that background checks and the requirement to hold an Aviation Security Identification Card are only required for unescorted access to Security Restricted Areas (SRA), not for general airside access. This approach would align with international practice.”
 
Nearly two and half years have passed without action on this most important issue.
The AOPA Australia are calling on you Minister to give immediate effect to the ASRR ASIC recommendation, so as to remove this unnecessary regulatory burden before the close of 2016, providing our general aviation industry with your firm commitment for reform.
 
We would appreciate a formal response.
 
Yours sincerely,
 
BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director – Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA)
Mobile:  0415 577 724
 


MTF...P2 Cool
Reply
#73

AOPA is to be congratulated for its work towards GA reform. As a long time member having watched the accelerating decline it is very pleasing to see the organisation taking it up to government. As of today AOPA's CEO Ben Morgan has issued another couple of press releases about the need for immediate relief. This coincides with Dick's support of Pauline Hanson's One Nation, quote;  

" Dick Smith has also offered to help Ms Hanson with her aviation policy.

He said he would help her cement the support of tens of thousands of voters who work in the industry.

“Myself and the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association will come up with what needs to be done and I will give her some suggestions,” he said.

“I think she would get tens of thousands of votes from the aviation community because they have been let down by the ALP and Liberals.”

With this type of political pressure we have the best chance of causing change for the better and the naysayers should take a back seat. It will be a fight with CASA and Transport bureaucrats, they will pull every trick in the book in order to maintain their highly paid cushy jobs. We've come to realise that the interests of the country are not their concern. All power to AOPA's Board for encouraging political action.
Reply
#74

(12-06-2016, 04:23 PM)Sandy Reith Wrote:  AOPA is to be congratulated for its work towards GA reform. As a long time member having watched the accelerating decline it is very pleasing to see the organisation taking it up to government. As of today AOPA's CEO Ben Morgan has issued another couple of press releases about the need for immediate relief. This coincides with Dick's support of Pauline Hanson's One Nation, quote;  

" Dick Smith has also offered to help Ms Hanson with her aviation policy.

He said he would help her cement the support of tens of thousands of voters who work in the industry.

“Myself and the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association will come up with what needs to be done and I will give her some suggestions,” he said.

“I think she would get tens of thousands of votes from the aviation community because they have been let down by the ALP and Liberals.”

With this type of political pressure we have the best chance of causing change for the better and the naysayers should take a back seat. It will be a fight with CASA and Transport bureaucrats, they will pull every trick in the book in order to maintain their highly paid cushy jobs. We've come to realise that the interests of the country are not their concern. All power to AOPA's Board for encouraging political action.

For Sandy's benefit here are the two AOPA Media Releases issued today... Wink

Quote:Tuesday, 6th December 2016
 
PRESS RELEASE – For immediate release
 
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia to work with Queensland Senator, Ms Pauline Hanson’s One Nation and all sides of politics to develop general aviation reform policy.
 
The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia welcomes interest from all sides of politics with regard to the important issue of general aviation reform, understanding how important it is for the country’s political leaders to have a clear and concise understanding of the challenges facing our industry.
 
The AOPA Australia confirms that it will work with Queensland Senator, Ms Pauline Hanson’s One Nation Party and all other sides of politics to develop a general aviation reform policy framework that can serve to arrest the serious decline of the general aviation industry.
 
The AOPA Australia has recently highlighted to government, that over the past 10 years;
 
  • General aviation pilot numbers have declined by 34% (loss of 8,000+ from the industry)
  • General aviation fuel sales have declined by 35%
  • Number of general aviation aircraft not flying has increased by over 50% (over 3,000+ aircraft parked)
 
The AOPA Australia has called on the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Mr Darren Chester, to;
 
  • Amend the Civil Aviation Act so as to require the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to foster and develop aviation, so as to provide growth and opportunity for all Australians
  • End the wasteful +$300 million taxpayer funded CASA regulatory reform program
  • Harmonise our regulations to that of the world’s most successful aviation marketplace, the United States and their Federal Aviation Regulations (US FAR).
 
The AOPA Australia promotes the following core regulatory values;
 
  • Only regulate where necessary
  • Deregulate everywhere we can
  • Reduce cost to industry
  • Create a vibrant and dynamic general aviation industry for all Australians
 
Yours Sincerely,
 
BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director - Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) 
 

&..

Quote:Tuesday, 6th December 2016

 
PRESS RELEASE – For immediate release
 
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia commences work on Minister Chester’s review into General Aviation Decline.
 
The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia this week met with representatives of the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics (BITRE) to commence work on Minister Chester’s, review into general aviation decline – the first of a number of meetings planned.
 
Leading the BITRE review team is Director of Aviation Statistics, Mr Glenn Malam, who provided AOPA Australia with government data that confirms graphs released by AOPA Australia in August 2016, showcasing the serious decline in general aviation over the past 10 years, including;
 
  • General aviation pilot numbers have declined by 34% (loss of 8,000+ from the industry)
  • General aviation fuel sales have declined by 35%
  • Number of general aviation aircraft not flying has increased by over 50% (over 3,000+ aircraft parked)
 
The AOPA Australia has put forward a range of valuable feedback during the first meeting, which included;
 
  • Amend the Civil Aviation Act so that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) is required to foster general aviation industry growth and development
  • Adopt and harmonise to the world’s most successful general aviation regulatory framework, the United States Federal Aviation Regulations
  • Extend the ADS-B install deadline to 2021 without restriction to both commercial and private operators
  • Remove unique Australian aging-aircraft requirements (ie. Cessna SIDs)
  • Remove the unnecessary ASIC requirement for general aviation users
  • Immediately implement Class 2 Medical Reform to re-introduce thousands of GA pilots to flying
  • Remove unreasonable industry charges and fees for interactions with the safety regulator
 
The AOPA Australia also confirmed its stance on aviation regulatory management;
 
  • Only regulate where necessary
  • Deregulate everywhere we can
  • Reduce cost to industry
  • Create a vibrant and dynamic general aviation industry for all Australians
 
The BITRE team have until 30th June of 2017 to complete their review and will shortly commence interviewing general aviation business operators seeking to understand the industry’s view with regard to general aviation decline.
 
The AOPA Australia welcomes aircraft owners, pilots and general aviation business operators who would like to provide direct input to this important review to contact the AOPA Australia office by telephone
on: (02) 9791 9099 to register your interest in participating.

 
Best regards,
 
BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director – Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA)
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#75

In as I recall 1989 the Berlin Wall came down. No one foresaw that event, triggered as it was by obvious truth. Truth was, and remains 'is', that prosperity and fairness do not derive from super government. It is remarkable that two hundred years have passed since the most of the North Americans overturned the notion that rights are not the perogative of the Crown, i.e. Government. They decided that all power resides in the people, not derived from one exalted person or the oligarchs. This self evident truism has still to take on in Australia. Obvious truth is that general aviation in Australia has suffered grievously from very poor governance. Those of us having watched this slow motion disaster remain appalled at the lack of responsible government action to correct this blot on the life of the nation, let alone the numerous injustices perpetrated on so many individuals. The likes of Ben Morgan and the Board of AOPA, Dick Smith, Ken Cannane of AMROBA, Phil Hirst, TAAAF and numerous others to inspire reform are working in the interests of Australia. I am hopeful that all the pet theories, the various individual ideas are now coalesced into the one true direction. With increasing publicity, eg Dick and One Nation, our message of freedom of action, simple rules like road rules, can cause a great burst of GA activity to the benefit of all aviators and the general community. Aerial transport, employment, education, manufacturing, training, airports (private property on landside please) and many other facets of general aviation stand to grow and benefit the whole country. We would should support AOPA and whomever stands for our freedom, freedom to exercise our right to fly. The biggest lie, and we are guilty of allowing it, that it is a government given privilege to fly. This must be a priority, to express that to fly is our right, not a government (Crown) privilege.
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#76

Furthermore;  we should not compromise, we should not seek to review or discuss with CASA anything. It should all, repeat all, be put through the Minister.

Independent instructors and LAMEs.
Freehold on airports.
Simple rules and get rid of strict liability and criminality.
Car driver medical regime or better.
No more compulsory SIDS and other home grown speciality restraints.
Build in some incentives, no AFRs for owners or CPL or more than say 1000 hr pilots. Lifetime ASICS for instructors or over 50 yo, think many similar such ideas.

If we play their game, situation normal, year upon year of reviews, reports and a few crumbs thrown our way. Waste your time, smarmy army and beguile the overawed hicks from the bush. The power spell of Can'tberra must be resisted, know the absolute priority is to make change that benefits Australia and understand that our overall benefits in aviation will partially destroy the good life of Can'tberra. This is what the fight is about. Make no mistake, they will fight dirty but they are not really smart, they are myopic and uninformed, we can win.
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#77

(12-06-2016, 07:22 PM)Sandy Reith Wrote:  Furthermore;  we should not compromise, we should not seek to review or discuss with CASA anything. It should all, repeat all, be put through the Minister.

Independent instructors and LAMEs.
Freehold on airports.
Simple rules and get rid of strict liability and criminality.
Car driver medical regime or better.
No more compulsory SIDS and other home grown speciality restraints.
Build in some incentives, no AFRs for owners or CPL or more than say 1000 hr pilots. Lifetime ASICS for instructors or over 50 yo, think many similar such ideas.

If we play their game, situation normal, year upon year of reviews, reports and a few crumbs thrown our way. Waste your time, smarmy army and beguile the overawed hicks from the bush. The power spell of Can'tberra must be resisted, know the absolute priority is to make change that benefits Australia and understand that our overall benefits in aviation will partially destroy the good life of Can'tberra. This is what the fight is about. Make no mistake, they will fight dirty but they are not really smart, they are myopic and uninformed, we can win.

Luv it Sandy, this comes to mind when you write like that... Wink

Quote:Winston Churchill - "..We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender..."

Big Grin Big Grin

MTF...P2 Tongue
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#78

Lesser of the two Weevil's.

I have to wonder; just what, in the seven hells are AOPA playing at? I know the US version is.  You can only ‘negotiate’ from a position of either power or knowledge, preferably both. Unless you are a salesman, then you must rely on ‘good will’. Unless of course what you are trying to flog is either the ‘Ducks nutz”, a bargain or unique. I cannot see where any of this shines through. CASA and other entities must, by default, entertain ‘a public group’ and be seen to be consulting and advising and listening and making all the right PC noises. Until they get to the pub afterwards.
 
Members of AMROBA, RAA and TAAF; Warbirds, RAOz, GFA, AHIA, AAAA can, with the sureness of expert knowledge and hard won respect, present an argument, with ‘legs’ which may; just, possibly ‘sway’ those with the juice to make changes consider doing so. That is no small thing; the Senate and the Rev. Forsyth had no success whatsoever; but then, neither did any of the many other ‘inquiries’ and suchlike either. So, while the pathway mapped out and the strategy employed by the ‘senior’, expert groups may not suit some minority groups; it has been proven to work and is given both due respect and a ‘fair’ hearing. I don’t put much faith in their ‘influence’ on the grand scale of things, but slowly with certainty they have gained trust, respect and; most importantly – entre to the ‘upper’ levels.
 
Once, I was once attacked by a dog as I was going home one night; a big, loud, aggressive not too smart animal which was off the reservation and had no idea what it was dealing with. It got at least seven bells kicked out it before I dragged it back where it came from and ‘re enforced’ the lesson. It didn’t learn of course; it only dimly remembered that attacking me was not the best idea it ever had.
 
The initial ‘shock’ tactic of Tamworth had an impact, it did. But the capital gains which could have been of benefit have been lost. Credibility is paramount; the current AOPA leadership have NFI about airspace, let alone airspace reform. The current AOPA leadership have NFI about aerodrome ‘master plans’ or; the subtle, but highly effective manipulation of definitions, policy or ‘Commonwealth’ involvement. Ignorance of this I could, perhaps, tolerate, but ignorance, arrogance as a sales pitch to join AOPA’s dwindling numbers leaves me stone cold. I will leave twitter comment to wrap this up.

"..I'm just ashamed this arse clown is "representing" the industry

I mean it's about time AOPA got up and said something

But he needs a mentor with experience other than the Sunday arvo crew at the aero club reminiscing about the 1950s .."


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#79

Hall of Shame candidate.

I shuddered, then groaned when I saw the ‘headline’ “GA peak body” etc.  For starters, it is grossly misleading; the first paragraph announces that “an independent inquiry” etc. is enough to raise the hackles of many. Consider – David Forsyth, supported by a minister, with full RRAT backing, using overseas contracted ‘experts’ took months to provide a ‘first class’ report to the parliament, dubbed the ASRR.  “An opinion” was the official response, the report was all but completely ignored except that it resulted some minor, cosmetic repairs.

The Archerfield Chamber of Commerce amongst others have spent years and a small fortunes  in attempts to protect the public, investors and aviation businesses from the developers; all to no avail. Questions in Parliament and Senate have been raised; the RRAT estimates panel have relentlessly hammered the ‘crats in an attempt to halt the march and to protect the public from events such as the last, where an aircraft ran out of time, room and luck, all at the same moment. The carnage would have been dreadful had the event occurred at a different time; Lady Luck smiled her warning – again.

The ‘tactics’ AOPA are using along with the ‘headline’ grabbing are becoming repellent. The whole show smells of grease paint, spot lights and snake oil salesmen. Take for example the ‘hi fidelity sim’ exercise; sounds top notch and will produce a ‘result’ defining exactly what? That an aircraft hit a building – we know that; that the buildings are too close, we know that too. Can AOPA explain why & how only AOPA can demonstrate that under the present rules, those buildings are a danger to safe operations – all operations? Can AOPA prove categorically that allowing the airport land to be developed places the public at an unacceptable risk level, with any credibility? The short answer is no, most certainly not.

It all may be absolutely true, in fact it probably is. However a careful study of the failed Archerfield attempt to prove the case and the official response to that case demonstrates very clearly which way the land lies – uphill, in very slippery mud, all the way.

AOPA need membership; but how many will want to be represented by this half baked showcase of self advertisement. The comments following the article on the ‘Plane Talking’ blog summarise what I believe to be ‘industry’ response. There were still smouldering bodies in the crashed Be20 aircraft when AOPA was on Channel 7 convincing the world that Essendon should be closed, then having to spend time recanting and retracting and re explaining what was meant.  Just a publicity stunt; even GT made more sense.  Will the powers that be take anything AOPA come up with seriously; to be of value? What will the public remember of the AOPA ‘interviews’? I feel embarrassed for them, I really do.

This type of behaviour only has two results; the public believe that air operations endanger shopping and airports should be closed; and, more importantly, it provides the mandarins with valuable ammunition and ‘sneer factor’. Can you imagine the minister entertaining AOPA or the CASA board supporting the AOPA ‘independent’ report? I can’t.

I have no doubt that the AOPA (Oz) President is sincere, means well and is as disgusted with the whole ‘system’ as everyone else is. I have even less doubt that De’Stoop would change it for the better, tomorrow; given the chance. But first, he must gain that chance, which means gaining the support of those folks who can advise and have entre into the areas where change may be initiated. Without that, it’s just another bloody dog barking at the moon.  There is such a thing as bad publicity, there is such a thing as a silent majority and; there are some very serious, well supported groups who would be prepared to assist a genuine attempt at improvement. AOPA need to seriously think about how they ‘look’, where they are going, with whom; and how best to get there.

Toot (it needed IMO to be said) toot.
Reply
#80

Hitch – “The AOPA presence at WOI apparently heralds a new level of participation for the association. AOPA has attended many shows over the years, but the one thing that has been missing is serious hosting for members. That has never been a sign of a lack of will, rather a lack of available funds. With the marquee, fenced-off seating area and now the aerobatic team established, AOPA is making itself a large player in aviation events in Australia. Not only is this a great way to wave the flag, but also to increase the value of a membership.” (Courtesy Australian Flying).

“Not only is this a great way to wave the flag, but also to increase the value of a membership.”

Ain’t that the truth. Well done AOPA, well done indeed. One of the very much missed elements of ‘aviation’ is the ‘club’ atmosphere. Which provided not only reasons to go flying, but a place where ideas and stories could be swapped, a sense of ‘belonging’ and camaraderie. AOPA in America is not just a ‘membership’ thing, it’s a cohesive unit where folk from all walks of live come together to share their common interest – matters aeronautical.

The BRB have been saying for a while now that AOPA could fill the void left by the demise of the aero club – you know, things like a ‘hanger night’ – sausage sizzle and a ‘talk’ or even a ‘movie’. One of the troops has a stack of tapes – historic aircraft, WWII machinery, passenger transport development; that sort of thing. Had a beer with Thorny last evening strangely enough we ended up talking about how ‘back in the day’ private flying was a real part of life, a very ‘social’ thing, a flying competition, ‘streamer cutting’, flour bombing. Spot landings etc. followed by a BBQ. Fly-ins, displays, all manner of things which ‘bonded’ aviators. Must be better than sitting at home, alone, flying the Microsoft whatever on the computer.

Anyway – FWIW, it’s good to see AOPA back in the game and on track. Bravo. I’ll leave it here and let Thorny’s journey down memory lane put things in perspective.

Thorny:-

Poor old Tassie, then again its much the same wherever you go.
Somehow the "club" disappeared to be replaced by business.

As a 6 year old I remember the days at the Aeroclub of Southern Tasmania,
Lloyd Jones was the CFI. My dad an ex Raffi was an honoury instructor on the
weekends. Sunday was family day, there was a kids playground next to the hanger,
families would go out Sundays, a barbecue lunch, lots of flying comps., streamer cutting, spot landings,flour bombing, all good fun, and as a kid you often got invited to go along with someone doing a city sight see, I needed about four cushions to see out of the old tigers. Oh the smell of Dope and canvas and gypsy major engines, no radio just lights from the tower, still got my Dads old leather helmet with the "POOF" tube attached.

This was a primary airport so things got suspended for the DC3 to land from Melbourne, my uncle was a captain based in Hobart, he'd often come down to the "Club" and join the throng in full dress uniform and bring the rest of his crew with him.

There was also monthly fly-a-ways, down to Lake Pedder for a barbie on the beach,Kids dispatched with lengths of string and a lump of meat to catch fresh water lobsters from the creek or up to Launnie for a visit to the club there, or Wynyard or a property strip on the farm, rabbit shooting or picking mushrooms. I learnt how to tickle spotted eels (Trout) out of the creek.

The thing was, it was social, family orientated,where did all that go? The fun and enjoyment, jeez I had my first crush on one of the Hosties from my Uncles crew, I was going to marry her....when I grew up.

Them were the days, pity we lost that along the way.
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