The search for investigative probity.

Search 4 IP continues on YMEN DFO prang report -  Dodgy

Follow the chain, via the UP:

Quote:Lead Balloon - So apparently the PIC did neither the cockpit/cabin check nor the external walk around check, at least not in relation to the rudder trim.


Still no explanation as to how the rudder trim apparently came to be set full NL before the flight. And the performance airborne with two engines producing full power was really poor - puzzling so - even assuming the rudder was trimmed full NL. 

Incredible. Really incredible. -  Rolleyes 



Squawk7700 - A little bit of context. It's a very large trim. You'd think it would be hard to miss it. I also note what may be a slight off-set of the rudder to the right, despite the controls appearing to be in a neutral position.



[Image: tail1_501a897becb1bf2061b5073e7d757f798bdda263.jpg]
[Image: tail2_15740216d327776e661dd60690bcc31ffdb5fbc9.jpg]
Sincerest apologies if I have the wrong model.


Old Akro

Quote:

Quote:So apparently the PIC did neither the cockpit/cabin check nor the external walk around check, at least not in relation to the rudder trim.

The report notes that the pilot is seen doing a walk around on CCTV.



Old Akro

Quote:


Quote:A little bit of context. It's a very large trim. You'd think it would be hard to miss it

The big unanswered question is, assuming the trim was left full left for the take-off, could the pilot counteract it?


The report has not tested this.

They put a guy in a SIM, but he did not fly the accident profile. The SIM flew up to (or slightly over) 140 knots, but the accident aircraft did not get above about 112 knots airspeed (report lists groundspeed).. If the trim condition was the cause of the accident and the SIM flew the accident profile, then the SIM should have a) not got above 112 knots and b) crashed. 

The other alternative would be to do what the ATSB did in the last trim related fatal accident at Essendon - the Partenavia. in 1978. In this instance the ATSB flew a real aeroplane in a disciplined test manner and recorded the force required to counteract the elevator trim at different trim settings and airspeed. The results table was part of the report. I would think that a diligent report would have followed the same methodology the ATSB used in the past. 

As a result of the Partenavia accident an AD was issued soon after that changed the elevator trim limits. If the out of position rudder trim is so catastrophic and there is a history of other incidents, you would think that some review of the B200 rudder trim might be warranted and mooted in the report.
And then some more bollocks from Hoodlum (I mean) FGD135:

Quote:FGD135

Quote:

Quote:If the trim condition was the cause of the accident and the SIM flew the accident profile, then the SIM should have a) not got above 112 knots and b) crashed.


Old Akro, you are making the assumption that the sim is a 100% faithful replication of the real aircraft. Myself and several other posters have already pointed out to you that no simulator, of any aircraft, is that accurate - especially when flight "outside the envelope" is involved.

I suspect that, due to the large sideslip angle, the fin would have been fully stalled - thus putting the aircraft outside the envelope.

And you're also not allowing for possible differences in the physical performance of the sim pilot vs the real pilot. This has also been pointed out to you.

Quote:

Quote:... the ATSB flew a real aeroplane in a disciplined test manner and recorded the force required to counteract the elevator trim at different trim settings and airspeed.

I suspect that ATSB policy may not permit them to take a real aircraft outside the envelope. To have done testing with less than full NL trim may not have had sufficient validity - particularly whilst the fin remained unstalled.

 To which LB & OA replied... Wink
Quote:Lead Balloon

Quote:

Quote:Originally Posted by FGD135 [Image: viewpost.gif]
Old Akro, you are making the assumption that the sim is a 100% faithful replication of the real aircraft. Myself and several other posters have already pointed out to you that no simulator, of any aircraft, is that accurate - especially when flight "outside the envelope" is involved.

I suspect that, due to the large sideslip angle, the fin would have been fully stalled - thus putting the aircraft outside the envelope.

And you're also not allowing for possible differences in the physical performance of the sim pilot vs the real pilot. This has also been pointed out to you.

I suspect that ATSB policy may not permit them to take a real aircraft outside the envelope. To have done testing with less than full NL trim may not have had sufficient validity - particularly whilst the fin remained unstalled.

Just goes to show how much of the report is based on speculation, fuelled by confirmation bias.


Old Akro

Quote:


Quote:I suspect that ATSB policy may not permit them to take a real aircraft outside the envelope. To have done testing with less than full NL trim may not have had sufficient validity - particularly whilst the fin remained unstalled.


Firstly, FGD. I disagree strongly with you, but do respect that you apply intellect & logic. 

But, a) simulators are commonly used to reconstruct accident scenarios. Its clear that the ATSB didn't do this. and b) we don't know what they did because they haven't provided any details in the report (unlike for example the Partenavia report). But the SIM flying they did and the conclusions they reached are from airspeeds outside that flown by the accident aircraft and therefore, invalid. 

You don't need to fly "outside the envelope" to test a hypothesis and I think the 1978 Partenavia report demonstrates this nicely. in this instance, the ATSB took a real aeroplane that was identical to the crashed one and had a pilot experienced on type fly it. The pilot flew a predetermined flight test that consisted of flying a range of different airspeeds at each of the marked trim settings. The control forces were measured at each airspeed / trim combination. When the pilot approached the limit of comfort of control-ability of the aircraft, he stopped and didn't proceed to the next trim setting / airspeed. 

If this testing was possible and warranted for the last trim related fatality, why wouldn't it be now?

A 1 hour flight, 2 brake pedal force transducers, a motec logger and this topic would have been nailed and if it was the smoking gun would have obviated the need for the whole sideslip calculation mess. 

The ATSB has not provided any firm evidence either in terms of statements from the manufacturer, interviews with other B200 pilots or flight test data to support its assertion that the aircraft was not controllable with full left rudder trim. If full left rudder trim can be counteracted by foot application of right rudder, then there is another factor at play (which may better fit the long take-off run which the ATSB has conveniently glossed over). 

The B200 aircraft certification requires that the pilot is able to counteract full elevator trim. There is no similar requirement for rudder trim, although someone pointed to another requirement that infers this. I would question whether full rudder trim leading to loss of control of the aircraft was diligent "fail safe" deign. 

The whole premise of the report is therefore based upon speculation.

As a passing coincidence (or not -  Rolleyes ) I note that today HVH and his loyal minions released the ATCB annual report: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/201...t-2017-18/
(Warning: There is a high probability (> 30% PROB) that a spew bag will be required -  Confused )

Quote:[Image: cc_review_2017-18.jpg?width=670&height=3...&sharpen=2][img=505x0]https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5775181/cc_review_2017-18.jpg?width=670&height=302.156862745098&sharpen=2[/img]
In my second year as Chief Commissioner, the team and I have continued to position the ATSB as a multi-modal, teams-based, world-class transport safety investigation agency. At the start of 2017–18, the Australian Government allocated the ATSB additional funding to address the resourcing challenges encountered in previous years. We have used this funding to put the ATSB on a path of transformation.


And under the aviation section of the report: 


Quote:Aviation
During the year, we completed 25 complex aviation safety investigations and 34 short investigations.

The ATSB released the findings from its second investigation into the ditching of an Israel Aircraft Industries Westwind aircraft (VH-NGA) off Norfolk Island in 2009 (AO‑2009‑072). The release of this report demonstrates the diligence of the ATSB in ensuring that it drives safety forward. Thirty-six safety factors were included in the report, with the key message for flight crew, operators and regulators being that unforecast weather can occur at any aerodrome. There is a need for robust and conservative in‑flight fuel management procedures for passenger-transport flights to remote islands and isolated aerodromes. P2 - Kind of ironic when you consider this post today on the AP: http://www.auntypru.com/forum/thread-37-...ml#pid9433

Another published report relating to weather was the investigation into a collision with terrain involving an Airbus Helicopters EC 135 T1 (VH-GKK) at Cooranbong, New South Wales in 2015 (AO-2015-131). The safety message from this investigation is that avoiding deteriorating weather conditions requires thorough pre-flight planning. Pressing on into instrument meteorological conditions without a current instrument rating carries a significant risk of encountering reduced visual cues leading to disorientation.

Two reports were published covering pilot interaction with automated technology: a collision with terrain involving a Cessna 172 (VH-ZEW) near Millbrook in Victoria in 2015 (AO-2015-105) and a near collision involving Beech Aircraft Corp B200 (VH-OWN and VH-LQR) at Mount Hotham in Victoria in 2015 (AO-2015-108). Pilots need to have a thorough understanding of all systems on board their aircraft and have the skill to provide redundancy when those systems fail or their performance is reduced.

In addition to completing some significant investigations, a number were also commenced over the year. The collision with water involving a de Havilland Canada DHC-2 Beaver aircraft (VH-NOO) on the Hawkesbury River in New South Wales on New Year’s Eve drew substantial media attention (AO-2017-118). The ATSB response demonstrated our ‘on-call’ readiness at all times. The preliminary factual report was released on 31 January 2018.

P2 comment: Note how the ongoing high profile AAI(s) like the Perth Mallard prang; or the ATR bent tail occurrence; or even the YMEN DFO accident final report; do not even raise a passing mention - Dodgy 


MTF...P2  Cool
Reply


Messages In This Thread
The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 02-13-2015, 04:29 PM
MH370 & PelAir: The search for investigative probity - Part 1 - by Peetwo - 03-10-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-24-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 03-25-2015, 11:44 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-26-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-08-2015, 07:28 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 04-08-2015, 02:10 PM
PelAir & beyond - Save our Bureau or not?? - by Peetwo - 04-22-2015, 09:08 PM
Anybody care to play? - by Gobbledock - 04-08-2015, 05:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-09-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 04-12-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-13-2015, 04:36 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 04-13-2015, 05:20 PM
RE: Unscrambling the spaghetti. - by Kharon - 04-14-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-16-2015, 04:32 PM
Sundy voice of Reason - UP 4 post salute - by Peetwo - 04-19-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-09-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 04-20-2015, 10:05 AM
A long march to nowhere - again. - by Kharon - 04-26-2015, 07:17 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 05-09-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-09-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 05-09-2015, 03:59 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 05-17-2015, 06:09 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-17-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-10-2015, 06:25 PM
Of airports, muppets and flying blind - by Gobbledock - 06-10-2015, 10:18 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 06-11-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-12-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 06-12-2015, 01:48 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-16-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-16-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 07-16-2015, 10:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-17-2015, 07:03 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-17-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-18-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-18-2015, 08:12 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-28-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 07-29-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-29-2015, 04:00 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 07-29-2015, 09:17 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-31-2015, 11:41 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 07-31-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-05-2015, 08:27 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 08-05-2015, 07:38 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 08-08-2015, 10:02 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-08-2015, 10:32 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-10-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-10-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-11-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 09-15-2015, 10:46 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-29-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-30-2015, 08:52 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 09-30-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 09-30-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 09-30-2015, 04:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-01-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-07-2015, 07:25 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 10-07-2015, 07:54 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-07-2015, 09:31 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-20-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-20-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 10-23-2015, 09:54 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Ziggy - 10-24-2015, 12:11 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-29-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-30-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-31-2015, 05:31 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-05-2015, 07:45 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-08-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-12-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-12-2015, 09:00 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 11-12-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 11-13-2015, 05:50 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by ventus45 - 11-13-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-13-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-14-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by ventus45 - 11-13-2015, 01:26 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 11-13-2015, 04:39 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 11-14-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-20-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-23-2015, 09:01 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-23-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-25-2015, 05:10 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-03-2016, 08:09 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-25-2016, 08:28 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 04-25-2016, 09:29 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 05-03-2016, 06:28 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-03-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-11-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-14-2016, 10:49 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-23-2016, 07:48 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 05-14-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-19-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-02-2016, 11:20 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-20-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-22-2016, 08:26 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 06-22-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-23-2016, 08:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-29-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 07-29-2016, 09:46 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-02-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-31-2016, 09:34 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-02-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-03-2016, 08:09 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 08-03-2016, 06:40 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-03-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-06-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-06-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 08-06-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-06-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-09-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-09-2016, 09:47 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-11-2016, 07:48 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-11-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-18-2016, 07:58 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-18-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-19-2016, 11:48 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Sandy Reith - 08-19-2016, 01:22 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 08-23-2016, 09:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-03-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 09-03-2016, 10:52 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-09-2016, 08:33 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 09-09-2016, 10:22 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by ventus45 - 09-11-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-17-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-19-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-20-2016, 05:56 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-26-2016, 12:37 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 09-26-2016, 06:44 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 09-26-2016, 09:15 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-27-2016, 07:35 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-29-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-18-2016, 08:05 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-24-2016, 07:14 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 10-24-2016, 10:51 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-07-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 11-07-2016, 10:06 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 12-09-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 12-11-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-11-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-16-2016, 02:25 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 12-16-2016, 10:06 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 12-17-2016, 08:15 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 12-17-2016, 09:35 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 12-18-2016, 07:47 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-24-2016, 11:23 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 12-18-2016, 08:09 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 12-26-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-12-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-12-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-15-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-24-2017, 09:06 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 01-24-2017, 09:37 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 01-25-2017, 06:33 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-07-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-09-2017, 07:39 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 03-09-2017, 10:38 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-05-2017, 03:34 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-05-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Sidebar - 05-05-2017, 11:55 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 05-06-2017, 08:56 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-06-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 05-08-2017, 07:04 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-08-2017, 07:52 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 05-08-2017, 09:38 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 05-08-2017, 09:47 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 05-09-2017, 07:35 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-19-2017, 01:21 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-20-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 05-20-2017, 11:27 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-01-2017, 10:38 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-01-2017, 08:28 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 06-02-2017, 09:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Sandy Reith - 06-03-2017, 01:59 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 06-03-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-17-2017, 12:03 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 06-20-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 06-20-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-23-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-26-2017, 10:05 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 07-05-2017, 07:48 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-10-2017, 04:46 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-10-2017, 06:21 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-11-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-12-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-13-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by ventus45 - 07-17-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 07-17-2017, 07:50 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-18-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-24-2017, 10:52 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-01-2017, 07:53 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-12-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Cap'n Wannabe - 08-27-2017, 09:33 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-30-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-31-2017, 07:07 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-01-2017, 01:12 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-22-2017, 07:01 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-22-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-29-2017, 03:19 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-02-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-06-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-25-2017, 09:19 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-27-2017, 07:00 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-08-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-10-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-18-2017, 09:51 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-24-2017, 11:12 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-25-2017, 11:06 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-11-2017, 10:02 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 12-12-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-14-2017, 10:00 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-18-2017, 09:15 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-22-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 12-23-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-28-2017, 08:39 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-04-2018, 11:25 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 01-08-2018, 05:46 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-08-2018, 08:56 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-09-2018, 04:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-11-2018, 11:23 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 01-13-2018, 07:41 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-17-2018, 08:41 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 01-17-2018, 08:58 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-24-2018, 09:44 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-18-2018, 01:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-19-2018, 02:15 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 04-19-2018, 07:54 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 04-19-2018, 11:08 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-02-2018, 08:54 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-18-2018, 08:48 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 05-18-2018, 09:20 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-15-2018, 12:17 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 07-15-2018, 07:44 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-03-2018, 11:05 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-03-2018, 05:58 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-07-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-24-2018, 08:19 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Cap'n Wannabe - 09-24-2018, 10:54 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-24-2018, 06:42 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-24-2018, 07:07 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 09-24-2018, 06:55 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-25-2018, 07:32 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-25-2018, 07:55 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-26-2018, 08:37 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-29-2018, 12:39 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-18-2018, 10:00 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-02-2018, 08:23 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 10-02-2018, 10:59 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-03-2018, 06:12 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-04-2018, 08:15 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-04-2018, 06:40 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-09-2018, 11:28 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 10-09-2018, 06:01 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 10-09-2018, 10:36 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-17-2018, 08:29 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by 6317alan - 10-18-2018, 01:29 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-19-2018, 09:25 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 10-19-2018, 11:06 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-23-2018, 10:57 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 11-23-2018, 06:50 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-27-2018, 11:04 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-27-2018, 05:25 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 11-27-2018, 08:59 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-28-2018, 08:55 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-22-2019, 09:31 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-26-2019, 09:52 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by 6317alan - 01-27-2019, 01:31 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gobbledock - 01-27-2019, 03:35 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 01-27-2019, 06:51 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-01-2019, 09:20 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-15-2019, 09:39 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-16-2019, 09:18 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-16-2019, 01:16 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-18-2019, 08:35 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-28-2019, 08:44 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-29-2019, 06:34 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-24-2019, 07:30 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-02-2019, 06:21 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-11-2019, 11:43 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-28-2019, 11:20 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-11-2019, 11:18 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-12-2019, 12:06 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-30-2019, 10:49 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-08-2019, 08:24 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-08-2019, 08:48 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-19-2019, 04:47 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 11-20-2019, 06:50 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 11-20-2019, 07:28 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-20-2020, 09:55 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-12-2020, 10:50 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-02-2022, 11:04 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-27-2022, 06:57 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by thorn bird - 02-28-2022, 07:33 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Cap'n Wannabe - 02-28-2022, 09:53 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-01-2022, 07:59 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-09-2022, 07:55 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-11-2022, 06:58 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-15-2022, 06:32 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-26-2022, 04:50 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-26-2022, 07:05 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-26-2022, 10:18 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 07-21-2022, 09:49 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-16-2022, 10:33 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-17-2022, 07:53 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-25-2022, 08:30 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-26-2022, 06:35 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 08-26-2022, 06:17 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-26-2022, 10:35 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 08-29-2022, 07:08 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-09-2022, 04:26 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-18-2022, 09:31 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-18-2022, 05:14 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-05-2022, 07:14 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 10-13-2022, 04:01 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-19-2022, 09:39 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-22-2022, 08:01 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 10-23-2022, 10:52 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 10-27-2022, 04:23 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-10-2022, 06:42 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-17-2022, 08:53 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-19-2022, 10:06 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-06-2022, 09:58 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-07-2022, 08:22 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-15-2022, 07:22 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-16-2022, 09:03 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-20-2022, 10:49 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-21-2022, 09:23 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-22-2022, 06:45 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Wombat - 12-22-2022, 07:44 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-26-2022, 09:17 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 12-26-2022, 06:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 12-30-2022, 05:15 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-03-2023, 09:27 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-05-2023, 09:38 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-06-2023, 07:48 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-16-2023, 10:06 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-18-2023, 09:48 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-20-2023, 09:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-25-2023, 04:46 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Gentle - 01-26-2023, 02:31 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-26-2023, 07:22 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 02-01-2023, 07:26 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-03-2023, 05:46 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-12-2023, 08:39 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by P7_TOM - 02-13-2023, 06:05 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-16-2023, 08:52 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-23-2023, 07:17 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 02-24-2023, 07:53 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-01-2023, 09:53 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-19-2023, 08:32 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-04-2023, 09:21 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-08-2023, 09:09 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-09-2023, 08:57 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-10-2023, 06:22 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 03-11-2023, 07:33 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-13-2023, 07:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-21-2023, 09:33 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-25-2023, 09:59 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-31-2023, 08:28 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-05-2023, 09:58 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-13-2023, 09:36 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-14-2023, 06:08 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-20-2023, 08:33 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-21-2023, 07:03 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Sandy Reith - 04-21-2023, 10:30 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-23-2023, 10:39 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 04-28-2023, 10:11 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-05-2023, 08:45 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-07-2023, 10:56 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 05-15-2023, 10:38 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-08-2023, 08:21 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-10-2023, 10:42 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 06-28-2023, 12:39 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 07-07-2023, 07:10 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-03-2023, 09:13 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 08-09-2023, 10:26 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Wombat - 08-14-2023, 12:46 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 09-21-2023, 07:38 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 09-22-2023, 07:36 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-03-2023, 06:27 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 11-22-2023, 09:49 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-02-2023, 08:45 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-15-2023, 09:45 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 12-22-2023, 09:55 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-02-2024, 09:24 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Sandy Reith - 01-03-2024, 07:39 AM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Kharon - 01-05-2024, 06:48 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 01-25-2024, 06:51 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - 03-11-2024, 07:38 PM
RE: The search for investigative probity. - by Peetwo - Yesterday, 06:35 PM



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