Less Noise and More Signal - Printable Version

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Peetwo - 07-12-2016

Very interesting Aussie & Ventus...

Quote:..I find it hard to believe the equipment on a P3 Orion could not detect that lot, and there was a nice white object bobbing up to get their attention...

The P3 Orions are fitted with an ELTA SAR/ISAR radar, which I believe were originally designed as a (air to air &/or air to surface) airborne combat & fire control radar but then modified in the Orion for maritime surveillance purposes. These radar can detect reflective targets as small as a 10 ft tinny at a distance of 20-30nm depending on sea conditions.
 
The P3 is also equipped with a FLIR that along with providing infra-red heat signature imagery, can also provide magnification imagery to a range of between 10-20nm. The FLIR is also capable of locking on a target and will maintain visual contact with the target throughout all aircraft manoeuvres (other than rolling inverted) as it is mounted on a 360 degree rotational turret.
  


Generally in all SAR operations it is SOP to video record all targets visually identified & then confirmed by the FLIR operator or AMC. Therefore Aussie it should be possible to request via FOI those FLIR recordings of all visually sighted targets from the AMSA co-ordinated SIO MH370 surface search.


MTF...P2

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - aussie500 - 07-12-2016

(07-12-2016, 03:58 PM)Peetwo Wrote:  Very interesting Aussie & Ventus...

Quote:..I find it hard to believe the equipment on a P3 Orion could not detect that lot, and there was a nice white object bobbing up to get their attention...

The P3 Orions are fitted with an ELTA SAR/ISAR radar, which I believe were originally designed as a (air to air &/or air to surface) airborne combat & fire control radar but then modified in the Orion for maritime surveillance purposes. These radar can detect reflective targets as small as a 10 ft tinny at a distance of 20-30nm depending on sea conditions.
 
The P3 is also equipped with a FLIR that along with providing infra-red heat signature imagery, can also provide magnification imagery to a range of between 10-20nm. The FLIR is also capable of locking on a target and will maintain visual contact with the target throughout all aircraft manoeuvres (other than rolling inverted) as it is mounted on a 360 degree rotational turret.
  


Generally in all SAR operations it is SOP to video record all targets visually identified & then confirmed by the FLIR operator or AMC. Therefore Aussie it should be possible to request via FOI those FLIR recordings of all visually sighted targets from the AMSA co-ordinated SIO MH370 surface search.


MTF...P2

Yes will If I go though and do another FOI request to finally corner them, I would need to start a kickstarter campaign to raise the funds. There is no way I could afford to do another FOI request by myself. And they would want a fortune for all I would ask for, considering what the Defence Department wanted for just some fuzzy photos packed up as pdfs. I would want everything, images, GPS info, maps, flight plans, video, radar detection's or what ever that tail thing can detect, sat imagery they might have, at full size as it was given to them. And especially the route HMAS Success took through that southern search area, the proper track as marked out on ship, not the AIS data. She seems to have missed a few turns after her stop over on the 25th, I want to know how close she came to my area on her way back, she never went straight north. I would want the info for the entire search area, even before they officially started searching it, and I would try and include even after they officially stopped the surface search.

And I would want info from AMSA, on search maps, flight plans, ship tracks, maps of who was searching where, drift data, and any images the civilian aircraft they hired might have managed to get. As well as all the reports done for the debris sightings, what was fished up and any analysis of their photos or items

Then there would be all the reports/analysis, locations and photographs the Federal Police might have for all the stuff handed in here in Australia, especially for the bit of debris washed up in WA that the ATSB gave me the run around when I tried to get the photos through FOI .

We also still need the American aerial search photo's, and although the IG group got the NZ ones, it is difficult to get all of them or even the metadata for them.

And then I would need expert help to make sure I never skipped any conceivable small details in the request, did not leave them any loop holes, and made sure I actually got everything possible to get the best chance of giving someone else a good location to look, that they could actually believe because we has some proof they could understand. ATSB would be long finished by then. Not that the ATSB ever had any plans of looking any where but that wretched and MH370 empty 7th arc. They might wander a bit further out from it, but they never had any intention of letting it go, might risk running into something they might have to fish up.

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - ventus45 - 07-12-2016

Aussie500 - how much did they charge ? Is there a set fee published somewhere, or do they just "roll their own invoice ?"

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - aussie500 - 07-14-2016

(07-12-2016, 07:59 PM)ventus45 Wrote:  Aussie500 - how much did they charge ?  Is there a set fee published somewhere, or do they just "roll their own invoice ?"

Well while they have a set cost they charge you for all the different things required for each request, which they set out some where on their FOI page, they first included $280 in photocopying charges, just to put some digital images on some discs. Took them a month to reply when I contested that extra charge. So they are not above making up a few extra costs to raise a bit of revenue. And they will take the full time allowed to make you wait as long as possible. I will not say how much it cost me in the end, but I consider it too much for what little of use I got out of them, and it was really way more than I could afford at the time. But if they had given me the images I wanted with at least some GPS metadata still in them, I would have been happy.

If anyone wants to try their turn at getting anything useful under FOI, they will send you out a prelimanary charges quote, see if you are will to pay that amount, it costs nothing to put a request in, you can always say no, if you do not like the cost. Or you can contest the charges and try and get a discount, I did try to get it whittled down a bit more, but they truned down the public interest angle, and I would have had to have sent more info on the financial hardship attempt, which would have taken another 30 days for them to respond. I just agreed to pay it.

The way they are stalling, saying they are still trying to get the images, I would say there was a limit on the time you can complain you were not happy with what you got. Will have to look into it soon.

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - ventus45 - 07-14-2016

Obviously the FOI path will not work.
Even when you got a few things, for example, the "images", as you say, they were deliberately "degraded", into a useless form, ie, presented as a "low resolution picture", not the "original document" REQUIRED BY THE ACT. Thus, they are in breach of the act.
The fact that they did it, as a means of deliberate elimination of metadata etc, proves that they have something to hide.
There would be a "mountain" of information from each and every search flight, track, times, crew mission narratives, photographs, FLIR and other imagery etc.
It should ALL be collated - AND PUBLISHED - on the JACC Website.
It will take a political demand to get that done.
Que Senator Zenophon for next Estimates.

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Gobbledock - 07-14-2016

ICAO = NO BALLS

I have said for some time now that ICAO are nothing more than an extension of the two-bit hack outfits such as our ATSB and CAsA. They have no balls and are not capable of making any real difference. These fools in Montreal sit around pontificating and ordering others about, while dreaming up policies and other word wankery, while achieving diddly squat. All bluff and bluster, just more retiree's cashing in on government pensions and salaries.

If ICAO, as part of the United Nations, had an ounce of morality or a sliver of dignity for the MH370 deceased they would've stepped in 18 months ago when it became obvious that both Australia and Malaysia were not capable of conducting the search and investigation in compliance with ICAO SARP's. ICAO has sat back on its fat collective arse and been as helpful as a carboard cutout of Dolan.

ICAO is just another example of a broken, failing system. A system that needs to be put to sleep and a new system emerge in it's place. Please keep in mind that ICAO are so useless that they have turned a blind eye to Australia's 30 year disaster of trying to fix aviation regulations. 30 years and still no big stick, ICAO just mumble some harsh words and slap Australia with a rooster feather. Just another outdated, monolithic, prehistoric piece of 18th century shite that should be gotten rid of. ICAO does nothing because it isn't capable capable of doing anything. Just a bunch of PHD boasting old twats smoking cigars and sipping Port while lounging on leather and mahogany sofas and talking, talking, talking.........

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - ventus45 - 07-14-2016

Just updated Post #260, with comments from Brock McEwen


Also an interesting discussion going on over on JeffWise-net

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Peetwo - 07-15-2016

Via BBC today:

Quote:MH370 relatives' anger at 'ignored' debris
By Richard Westcott Transport correspondent, BBC News

• 4 hours ago
  
• From the section Asia
  

     
Copy this link
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36791241

Image copyright Michael Marvin/Grace Nathan Image caption Grace Subathirai Nathan worries the world is starting to forget about the missing plane

Families of passengers from missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 have told the BBC that Malaysian authorities seem to be ignoring possible new evidence.

Two trips to Madagascar to pick up what might be debris from the plane have been cancelled at the last minute, according to the man that found them.

The potential clues have been left untouched for weeks, with no prospect of them being gathered and examined.

"Credible evidence is turning up, why are they not investigating it?" Grace Subathirai Nathan told the BBC.

Her mother, Anne Daisy, was on MH370 when it disappeared in March 2014.

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Media caption - In March, Grace Nathan told the BBC that relatives desperately want the search to go on until the plane is found.

"From day one we've had the notion they want an end to it, to sweep it under the rug. How can potential evidence be unattended for a month? It's becoming a farce."

American Blaine Gibson sold the family home to fund his own search for parts of MH370.

Having found one piece in Mozambique that investigators say is "almost certainly" from the plane, he travelled to Madagascar where he uncovered more potential evidence.

Blaine says a Malaysian investigator was initially due to fly to Madagascar to retrieve the debris on 16 June. That was then changed to 21 June. A press conference was lined up, then the trip was cancelled at the last minute.

Blaine even offered to take the finds to Malaysia himself but says his offer was turned down.

Image copyright K S Narendran Image caption Naren is one of several relatives who suspect Malaysian authorities want to bring the search to a quiet close

Grace is not the only frustrated MH370 family member.

"It's been nearly a month, but the Malaysian response has been bordering on indifferent", K S Narendran, known as Naren, told the BBC.

"The point is, these are all pieces of a puzzle, that pieced together might tell us a story." Naren lost his wife Chandrika on the plane.

The official reason is that they don't have enough money for the trip, but Naren suspects something else.

"I wonder if it's just a way to bring it to a quiet close."

The Australian Transport Safety Board told the BBC: "Australia is leading the underwater search for MH370 but it is Malaysia, as the investigating body, that retains authority for coordinating the examination of debris."

The BBC contacted both the Malaysian authorities and ICAO, but was unable to get a response.

An investigator's view

The few pieces of MH370 that have emerged so far have told us nothing about why the plane crashed. So why is it so important to collect more?

"Their examination can reveal information about how the aircraft hit. For example, are all the pieces from the left or right side of the aircraft?" said Anne Evans, an accident investigator with the highly respected British Air Accidents Investigation Branch for 23 years.

She told the BBC that debris could answer other questions too.

"Was the aircraft intact when it hit the water, so do we have pieces from the entire fuselage, front and rear? Although the information gleaned from these items may be extremely limited given their small number, the documentation and analysis of all pieces can still yield some clues".

Image copyright Blaine Alan Gibson Image caption One of the pieces resembled a panel from a seat and includes a piece of equipment saying "coat hook"

Families becoming 'an irritation'

It's important to note than these Madagascan finds may have nothing to do with MH370, although various experts I've spoken to suggest there is a good chance at least some are from the plane.

"I don't understand why they won't even take a look at it," Naren said. "I understand members of my family won't come back, but it doesn't take away my need to know. I wonder if the families have become an afterthought or an irritation."

Grace, who runs a support group for the families, says they have tried to raise the issue elsewhere.

"We have written to the ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organization - the UN body in charge of aviation] but they don't write back. The Malaysians shun us."

"We have absolutely no communication with investigators. We still don't know what they found from analysis on the flaperon [the first confirmed piece of MH370 debris to be found]."

They are also upset that the Malaysian government recently said that the possible personal effects found in Madagascar were nothing to do with the plane. "How do they know" Grace said, "without examining them?"

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Where confirmed or suspected MH370 debris was found


1. A section of wing called a flaperon, found on Reunion Island in July 2015 - confirmed as debris in September 2015
2. Horizontal stabilizer from tail section, found between Mozambique and Madagascar in December 2015
3. Stabilizer panel with "No Step" stencil, found in Mozambique in February 2016
4. Engine cowling bearing Rolls-Royce logo, found in March 2016 in Mossel Bay, South Africa



Image copyright ATSB
5. Fragment of interior door panel found in Rodrigues Island, Mauritius in March 2016
Image copyright Blaine Alan Gibson

6. Fragments including what appears to be a seat frame, a coat hook and other panels found on Nosy Boraha island in north-east Madagascar.

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Grace and Naren both support the expensive, complex and dangerous sea search now combing the ocean floor six days sail from Australia. But that could be wound up in a matter of weeks or months.

If no new clues come to light, the Malaysian and Australian governments have said they will call it off.

That is why the families want the search extended, to the beaches on the other side of the Indian Ocean, where more than two years later, the only solid clues to this whole mystery are washing up.

Grace says not knowing what happened is torture.

"My biggest fear is that the whole thing will be forgotten. We've all gotten' worse in our own way, we need to be able to understand something before we can accept it".

Naren says if you don't solve the mystery, you can't stop it happening again: "Do we have to wait for more unfortunate incidents to bring the focus back?"

MTF...P2

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - ventus45 - 07-15-2016

Desmond Ross

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - ventus45 - 07-15-2016

Aussie,

Your FIO photos are being examined over on JeffWise.net.

http://jeffwise.net/2016/07/07/guest-post-where-mh370-search-area-debris-has-historically-gone/comment-page-7/#comment-175410

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Kharon - 07-16-2016

Tim-Tams for “V”

#270 Thanks for putting the ‘Ross’ article up; and, for boosting the Aussie500 efforts. Nice one.

I still can’t believe A500 had so much trouble and expense getting hold of the information. It should be freely available to anyone who wants to ‘examine’ the data. If not, why not? – What can be so sensitive and secret about search pictures and data that it must be kept out of the public purview? Anyway, I’ve said all that.

Cheers

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - aussie500 - 07-16-2016

I will put up this link to a pdf of an issue of New Zealand's Air Force News
http://www.airforce.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/airforce-news/afn157.pdf

It has a nice MH370 article, which includes the snippet that they searched along the 7th arc on their way down, which would have been the 18th March. So it is likely the RAAF had a P3 Orion out on the 16th and maybe the 17th checking the bottom half of the 7th arc.

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Peetwo - 07-17-2016

(07-15-2016, 03:20 PM)Peetwo Wrote:  Via BBC today:

Quote:MH370 relatives' anger at 'ignored' debris
By Richard Westcott Transport correspondent, BBC News

• 4 hours ago
  
• From the section Asia
  

     
Copy this link
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36791241

Update on the African MH370 DOI -

Quote:Saturday, July 16, 2016
Tanzania hands over suspected piece of missing Malaysia plane 

[url=http://www.thecitizen.co.tz/News/Tanzania-hands-over-suspected-piece-of-missing-Malaysia-plane-/-/1840340/3297096/-/view/printVersion/-/ohusc6z/-/index.html][/url]
 

In Summary

The wing was found by fishermen in Pemba last month. 

By Gadiosa Lamtey @gadiosa2 glamtey@tz.nationmedia.com

Dar es Salaam. A piece of an aircraft wing suspected to be that of a missing Malaysian Airlines plane, flight MH370, was yesterday handed over to the company officials here.
The fragment, which was presented to Australian and Malaysian officials by Tanzania Civil Aviation Authority was found by fishermen in Pemba last month.

The aircraft with 239 people onboard was en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing on March 8, 2014 when air traffic control staff lost contact with it.

Despite an extensive search of the southern Indian Ocean, no trace of the aircraft was found.

A senior air accident investigator from the Malaysia Ministry of Transport, Mr Aslam Basha Khan, said it would take time to determine if the piece is from the missing plane as they had so far collected about 100 pieces of aircraft found in many places and they were analysing them all.

He said other aircraft pieces were found in Madagascar, Mozambique, South Africa and Mauritius. 

Sorry V, wrong link that one should work - P2  



MTF...P2

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - ventus45 - 07-17-2016

P2 .... The video link does not work.

Quote:A senior air accident investigator from the Malaysia Ministry of Transport, Mr Aslam Basha Khan, said ........

"they had so far collected about 100 pieces of aircraft found in many places and they were analysing them all."

???
News to me !
Did I miss something ?
Or is this just more Malaysian Government bs ?

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - aussie500 - 07-17-2016

Well It would not surprise me if a fair bit of debris managed to make it past the media, pity we cannot request a look at what of the 100 pieces of debris we have not seen. Maybe they best start up a viewing site, but they are too secretive for that, bad enough we are all looking over their shoulder trying to working out what it is before they even get a chance to pick it up.

Here is another old video, this one shows a clip of Flight Lieutenant Josh Williams talking about two of the objects seen on the 24th. These ones were not mentioned in the previous video. RAAF released no images of any of the stuff mentioned in the media reports or either video.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s3973122.htm

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Peetwo - 07-18-2016

More grey than black & white? - Courtesy Brock McEwen via Jeff Wise blog  

Quote:Brock McEwen
Posted July 17, 2016 at 4:35 PM

@Victor: “Whopper”, to me, is a generic adjective connoting bigness. In the context I used it, it modified “assumption”, i.e a “whopper of an assumption”. If deceit is inextricably buried in the meaning of this word – as you suggest – then Burger King has made a whopper of a marketing error.

The whopperishness (whopperity?) of the assumption that the ISAT data is trustworthy should be self-evident to everyone who has been paying attention. But if you say you need a recap:

1. lack of speed & completeness in ISAT data’s release
2. lack of transparency and accountability in SSWG’s search decisions
3. UAV paths consistent with pre-proprietary deep-sea resource prospecting
4. Lack of wreckage found at its indicated terminus*
5. Strength of physical evidence which counter-indicates the ISAT data
6. Dubiety of physical evidence held out as corroborating the ISAT data

* weakest argument, I admit – faked ISAT data strongly predicts faked wreckage, eventually – but with the actual search now covering 9x the area @ALSM considered the “high probability” search box which trumped all “conspiracy theories”, the failure of the search to date does shift Bayesian probabilities at least slightly toward faked ISAT data: if authentic, failure requires an increasingly hard to explain gaffe somewhere along the data/analysis/search chain; if faked, failure is increasingly consistent with a plan to delay/prevent wreckage discovery.

In my mind, the two leading theory families should be:

A) something happened that cannot be admitted, requiring a cover-up which ensures wreckage is NEVER found; and,

B) something happened that cannot be admitted, requiring a cover-up which ensures wreckage is NOT YET found

No other theory sets connect nearly as many dots.

Note: that I make no assertion regarding any link between architects of DISAPPEARANCE and COVER-UP. These may be the same entity, allies, independent agencies, or even enemies. While my hatred for unsubstantiated accusations against anyone unable to defend themselves remains white-hot, you’ll note my list doesn’t even exclude the pilot, provided his actions were sufficient to trigger a multinational cover-up – which I have a hard time believing.

The reason I make no assertion is simple: I haven’t a sweet clue as to why the search smells as bad as it does. All my studies – and Florence’s, and those of many others – reveal is that it DOES smell.
Really, REALLY bad.

Luv your work Brock -
MTF...P2

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Kharon - 07-18-2016

P2 "Luv your work Brock - "

Bollocks; Tim Tam at very least and a couple of Choc frogs to boot. Nicely done Brock.

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - Gobbledock - 07-18-2016

Of things that start with the letters MH....

Slightly off topic with this thread, but an interesting article relating to MH17 popped up today. Yet another Malaysian aircraft which met with tragedy in circumstances that as yet can not be fully explained;

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-17/mh-17-russia-convicted-propaganda-not-evidence

Some weird shit with the MH brand don't you think?

Just sayin.......

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - aussie500 - 07-18-2016

I am still waiting for them to give up fighting over who shot MH17 down, and start to look for some other cause other than a BUK no one saw.

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RE: Less Noise and More Signal - MrPeaBody - 07-19-2016

Was that 100 or 10 pieces of aircraft??

An extract from the Daily News (Tanzania) below.

The Permanent Secretary (PS) in the Ministry of Works, Transport and Communications, Dr Leonard Chamuriho, flanked by the Director General of Tanzania Civil Aviation Authority (TCAA), Mr Hamza Johari, handed over the wreckage to officials from Malaysia and Australia in Dar es Salaam yesterday.

“This is the largest piece out of the ten parts which have been recovered during the search operation so far. This part will enable the investigations to go forward,” a senior Air Accident Investigator in Malaysia’s Ministry of Transport, Mr Aslam Khan, noted.

PB

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